Tuesday, February 20: Oh, the joys of diversity!
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Commenter Israel writes:
“I think I might be able to answer Shade’s question posted earlier [about why Rosanna Pulido is called a race traitor because she opposes illegal "immigration"]. First of all Shade, I am Hispanic, 53 years old, U.S. born as are my parents (both Hispanic). In my immediate family we still speak, read and write Spanish as a second language and are very proud of the contributions that we as Hispanics have given our country through our culture, heritage, and plain old good citizenship. For example, starting with my father (now 83) in 1945 to the present a total of 26 (and counting) members on my father’s side of the family have served in our country’s armed forces. We have served in virtually every armed conflict since 1945 either through the draft or as volunteers.
“Yep, we still eat tortillas and make tamales at Christmas time. We don’t pretend to be anything other than what we are. Most definitely we are Americans first and thankfully my parents raised us with the belief that the content of a person’s character defined them; being brown and Hispanic was just a matter of circumstance.
“Unfortunately, it is my and my family’s observation that some of our Hispanic brethren choose to define themselves in a mindset that I term: I am Hispanic, therefore I am. I think that this mindset colors everything in those terms and creates a very narrow perspective of one’s experience. These fellow Hispanics create a definition of what it means to be a “Real Hispanic.â€
“And so because my family and I view illegal immigration as just that – illegal immigration. We are deemed traitors, Tio Tacos, sellouts, self-haters, you name it by these “Real Hispanics.â€
“We don’t speak up publicly, but I assure you that at family gatherings this issue comes up and we vent our anger. Supporters of illegal immigration would not find a warm welcome at our family gatherings.”
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Rosanna Pulido reminds me of me.
She’s a woman, a racial “minority,” a member of a so-called “disenfranchised,” preferred, and protected group, with a myriad of disingenuous yet highly effective justifications to rely on skin color to get by in life and excuse the acts of badly behaving members of her racial group.
Based on what I’ve read about her, she isn’t doing any of those things. Instead, Rosanna Pulido, daughter of legal immigrants from Mexico, is doing the unexpected. She’s a woman of Mexican descent who abhors illegal “immigration” and is doing something about it. Pulido is the founder of the Illinois chapter of the Minuteman Project — a group of American patriots who volunteer to peacefully stand watch at the border. Like me, she’s been called a traitor for standing up, publicly and without equivocation, for what she believes in.
With my eyes closed, I could quote the kind of e-mail she gets verbatim.
Despite the heat, Pulido is now Illinois chapter leader of You Don’t Speak For Me!, an organization of American patriots of hispanic descent and hispanic legal immigrants with the courage to shout from the rooftops that illegal “immigration” is harmful to citizens and legal aliens, and that it should be stopped. How refreshing it is to read (bold added):
We are Americans of Hispanic heritage who believe in America. We believe in the governmental institutions and laws that make this country the greatest in the world. It is because of this strong belief in the principles of freedom, individual liberties, the rule of law, and democracy that we formed You Don’t Speak for Me!: American Hispanic Voices Speaking Out Against Illegal Immigration…American Hispanic voices are being shouted down by the hate and race-directed rhetoric of those who do not appreciate the laws of our country. We of You Don’t Speak for Me! give voice to those without a voice and those whose opposition to illegal immigration is drowned out by illegal aliens and their supporters marching in the streets demanding undeserved “rights” of U.S. citizens…We are standing together to say to the those who come here illegally and those who would give amnesty to those who have broken our laws, you are wrong and you should not be claiming to speak for all American Hispanics. You Don’t Speak for Me!
Mere words can’t express how glad I am to know that Rosanna Pulido and a group like You Don’t Speak for Me! exist. I’m close to tears. Really. It gives me so much hope. I don’t care what color you are or where you came from. If you love America and respect its laws, you’re alright with me.
Pulido told the Chicago Sun-Times, “I believe there are a lot of Hispanics out there like me who are afraid to speak out. I’m uniting with other Latinos who know we must stand up for the rule of law and fight for every American citizen no matter what race or ethnicity they are.”
Don’t be afraid. Come out of the closet! We need you. If you’re a blogger of hispanic descent who is against illegal “immigration,” send me your links or trackback to this post.
America first, people. Skin color ties, ethnic loyalties, racial group grievances — all of that is inferior to the common qualities we share as law-abiding, freedom-loving, rule of law-supporting Americans. I may be of African descent, but being an American — born in the greatest country in the world — is what I value.
{ 87 comments }
Another issue that appears to be hijacked by the left.
My mother legally immigrated from Mexico 50 years ago.
My brother-in-law and sisters-in-law have been waiting in the Philippines in the legal immigration line for about 14 years now.
The Philippines is worse off than Mexico. It has lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, and higher inflation than Mexico.
There are countless stories from other visa petitioners from other countries that are worse off than Mexico.
There is nothing wrong with helping those less fortunate, but we can’t just allow people from one country to benefit. If America is to incorporate a help-those-less-fortunate immigration policy it should benefit people from all countries, starting with those countries that are worse off.
My father-in-law fought for this country during WWII as a Philippine Scout. In 1990 Congress finally recognized that these veterans were entitled to the US Citizenship they were promised at the beginning of WWII. Unfortunately, the citizenship only extended to the veteran and not their families. There families would have to wait in the legal immigration line.
My father-in-law fought for US interests, under the US flag and his children are still waiting to take part in the American dream. If my 80 year old father-in-law dies before his children’s petitions are processed the petitions will be deemed no longer necessary and will be voided.
I have more info at FilAmVets.com
Rosanna Pulido is proud of her Mexican heritage.
She doesn’t seem to express antagonism toward Mexican/Mexican American culture or subculture. Just illegal entry into the country. I wonder if she has expressed any criticisms beyond that of illegal immigration.
Shade, if your comment is supposed to be a thinly disguised implication that I am not “proud” of my heritage, let me set the record straight. While I don’t believe being a descendant of black slaves gives me any great pride in itself, it’s what blacks were able to accomplish for themselves despite having been slaves, descendants of slaves, and legally refrained from traveling wherever they wanted to go and from working in whatever profession they wanted to work, that I’m proud of, not my “heritage” per se.
I am perhaps the most vocal critic of what I consider the destructive element in the black American subculture, an element that affects all socioeconomic classes in black America as a whole. Unstable families, fatherless children – these things lead to poor family formation, high crime rates, low academic achievement, and other ills. While other bloggers prefer to focus on the “good,” my blog focuses on the “bad,” something I will continue relentlessly to do. If that, in the eyes of you and other blacks, seems as if I’m not “proud” of my heritage, I assure you, the perception problem is a personal one that has nothing to do with me.
As I am wont to do, I wrote a letter on border security and sent it to Persons of Authority in Washington. I also posted that letter to my blog. Grim of Grim’s Hall posted a link to it. One of his commenters took the high road, saying that I don’t like “brown people” and that I’m a racist. Also scoffs at the connection between open borders and the threat of terrorism.
Just as it is wrong to stereotype Hispanics as “illegal aliens”, it’s also wrong to (mis)characterize opposition to illegal immigration as anti-Hispanic. And I emphasize that it is ILLEGAL immigration that I oppose. (For one thing, a good number of illegal immigrants are not border-crossers from Mexico or farther south, but visa-overstayers from other part of the world.)
My ancestors immigrated legally from eastern Europe over 100 years ago. They obeyed the rules, so I only ask today’s immigrants to do the same. Those who advocate open borders are rudely slapping the faces of those people who come here legally and spend years waiting their turn in line for citizenship.
La Shawn:
Ditto on being proud of people who can get great things done.
I am not proud of Anna Nicole Smith. But that doesn’t mean I am not proud of may Americans of many colors.
This is the country of all those who are here LEGALLY – whether citizen or embarking on the path to citizenship. Be proud of your heritage, certainly, but your first and best allegiance must be to this great country that gives us the best potential standard of living in the world.
Too many seem to forget that virtually nowhere else on this planet can you enjoy the extraordinary freedom, opportunity and comfort that we do. We tend to take it for granted and we shouldn’t.
But nobody should attempt to force us to share it with them if they come here in violation of our laws and then demand that we ignore that and give them the rights and PRIVILEGES reserved for citizens. Uh-huh! We Americans are the most generous people on earth; but heaven help anyone who pushes us too far!
Gayle~
That’s why I sent this to Washington this weekend and this back in early May of last year.
Wow!
I guess I’ll be quiet today even though I have black and Latino and white heritage.
Shade, if your comment is supposed to be a thinly disguised implication that I am not “proud†of my heritage
I was trying to understand why a person who shows pride in her heritage would be deemed a traitor over the single issue of illegal immigration.
I’d LOVE to know the answer to that question, too. If you find it, please share it with me. – Admin
I feel the same as you, Shawn. Hope. And I, too, as a white woman, am willing to embrace those who appreciate and love this country and want to become a part of us as a whole. Hope!
The negative race baiters will be seen as selfish idiots in the future.
Can’t badmouth the Minuteman Project here, Angel. Take it elsewhere. – Admin
Your response certainly didn’t answer the question. Move on, please. – Admin
This lady, and the MANY like her, are to be applauded…
I live in Texas, I lived in El Paso for 9 years before coming back to the Dallas area a few years ago and I know a bit about the problems faced due to the ILLEGAL invasion taking place in America, and to those that have WORKED and EARNED their citizenship it means even more to them than it does to those of us born into it…
I wish the citizens like her weren’t afraid to stand and be heard, we NEED those voices and our government needs to not only HEAR them, they need to actually listen for a change…
The ILLEGAL flow MUST be stopped, and ILLEGALS must be removed from this nation, they are destroying this nation, I don’t care WHAT the so-called ‘experts’ say about the ‘jobs that we won’t do’ B.S., there is NO job an American won’t do, we may not ‘want’ to do them, but if it means the difference between our children having food or not, believe me, Americans WILL do those jobs…
And I am not at all against immigration, as long as it’s LEGAL immigration, my grandfather was an immigrant, but he came here legally, worked, paid taxes, raised a family thru the Great Depression and all of his sons and grandsons, and a couple of his granddaughters have served this nations military…
It’s time that we, as LEGAL Americans stood up for THIS nation and to make our leaders realize, AMERICA 1st, and to stop worrying about what ‘others’ think of us, they already hate us, no matter what we do, so now it’s time to take care of our own…
Everyone should read the letter from Miss Ladybug to the White House and others. It’s wonderful. I urge all bloggers to write their representatives and post it to their websites and also post the replies. Maybe, just maybe, this could be the start of a blogger “march” and maybe it could draw some attention from the press and even the politicians.
I also applaud Ms. Pulido, a brave woman with a compelling argument. She is getting some press as I had read her article in one of the Chicago papers a day or so ago.
Right on, TexasFred @15… Preach brother, preach!!!
I’m sick of the leering drunk illegal immigrants that try to run me off the road. It would be nice to feel like I could get back and forth to work in one piece!!!
Back when I taught in southern TX, my student population was predominantly Hispanic. I don’t know why it surprised me, but every parent I somehow ended up speaking to on the subject of illegal immigration was angry. They spoke of illegal immigrants in more pejorative terms than I was used to hearing.
I think those sentiments are more widespread than a lot of people think.
“They spoke of illegal immigrants in more pejorative terms than I was used to hearing.
I think those sentiments are more widespread than a lot of people think. ”
I guess depending on what one reads/what company one keeps, there is a whole load of truth that never gets heard by political pundits who are just trying to prove their ‘line’.
I’ve been reading US blogs for 6 years, and having lived in the US for two years, among predominately Hispanic (Puerto Rican/Argentinian/Cuban) residents, I was suprised to learn that people seemed just like back home, i.e. loads of differing views, very few extremists/nationalists/ragingleftie/righties, mostly just ‘folk’.
It’s encouraging.
Wouldn’t it be easier to just take over Mexico? In fact, anywhere that people are trying so desperately to get out ought to be a candidate for US annexation. If they think their way of life is so awful that they have to escape, why aren’t they advocating becoming part of our country? The only thing I have heard is that they want the whole southwest to go back to Mexico. Wouldn’t that defeat the point of going there?
I think that immigration reform is needed; it should be easier for legal immigrants who want to be here to get in. I have heard that there are “quotas” for different parts of the world and it is very difficult for the people that could really help vitalize our nation to get in. A lot of them want to uphold the values that America has traditionally had. There really is racism in some of the quotas, I think, and I think the quotas are absurd anyway. I say, screen them really good, find out why they want to be here, and if they are clean, let them in. And if they are here illegally, send them back unless it will hurt them (more than financially). And make them go through the process. And while we are at it, send all the liberals who threatened to move to Canada there. They can go through the process to get back in. Hopefully it will take long enough that they won’t want socialized medicine when they come back.
“illegal “immigration†is harmful to citizens and legal aliens”
I’d like to point out that illegal immigration is harmful to the illegal immigrants also and to their home country.
First of all, many of the men who leave their homes to sneak into the U.S. hire “coyotes” to help them. These coyotes are heavily involved in the drug trade and gang activity. And they are completely remorseless. A young man from Guatemala, might have to pay the coyotes $5000 (American) to get into the country, which is usually five grand more than they have.
The coyotes will “loan” him the money all right, but at an incredible interest rate. The young man may never get out from under the debt, in effect becoming a slave or indentured servant right here in the U.S.
Not only that, but his family back home struggles to get by without a father in the house. His children grow up without a father figure and have all the problems that that can bring on top of extreme poverty.
The bottom line is that for many illegal immigrants, the American dream is never realized and their lives are poorer because of it. The only ones who prosper are the gangs, and Lord knows we don’t need them getting any stronger.
Annex Mexico?? Good luck getting the people in the Mexican government to buy into that. Do that, and they lose power. The people sneaking over the border are the not-politically-influential population in Mexico. Probably people of indigenous Indian descent, not the Mexicans of European/Spanish descent. I agree Mexico needs to fix things so their own poor are able to succeed in their own country, instead of trying to export their poverty problem to the US. Oh, and you might be interested in checking up on Mexican immigration rules. In writing my letter, I did a little research (didn’t cite because it was a letter, not a term paper):
Mexican Constitution There are Mexican Nationals, and then there are Mexican Citizens.
Commentary on “Mexico’s Undiplomatic Diplomats”
Commentary on implementing Mexican-style immigration laws here
Commentary on what Mexico would do with non-citizens who demonstrated about internal political issues
>>Wouldn’t it be easier to just take over Mexico?>>
One tongue in cheek proposal I heard was to declare war on Mexico, invade and annex about 50 miles deep – or at least a good bit closer to Mexico City. One of the problems we have is that we patrol the border alone – Mexico doesn’t patrol the border. Declaring war and taking a bit of land would insure that they patrolled their side. If that didn’t help, then since we’d be at war, we could actually use the military and use a bit more force.
Sheriff Arapaio for Immigration Reform!!!
I think I might be able to answer Shade’s question posted earlier. First of all Shade, I am Hispanic, 53 years old, U.S. born as are my parents (both Hispanic). In my immediate family we still speak, read and write Spanish as a second language and are very proud of the contributions that we as Hispanics have given our country through our culture, heritage, and plain old good citizenship. For example, starting with my father (now 83) in 1945 to the present a total of 26 (and counting) members on my father’s side of the family have served in our country’s armed forces. We have served in virtually every armed conflict since 1945 either through the draft or as volunteers.
Yep, we still eat tortillas and make tamales at Christmas time. We don’t pretend to be anything other than what we are. Most definitely we are Americans first and thankfully my parents raised us with the belief that the content of a person’s character defined them; being brown and Hispanic was just a matter of circumstance.
Unfortunately, it is my and my family’s observation that some of our Hispanic brethren choose to define themselves in a mindset that I term: I am Hispanic, therefore I am. I think that this mindset colors everything in those terms and creates a very narrow perspective of one’s experience. These fellow Hispanics create a definition of what it means to be a “Real Hispanic.”
And so because my family and I view illegal immigration as just that – illegal immigration. We are deemed traitors, Tio Tacos, sellouts, self-haters, you name it by these “Real Hispanics.”
We don’t speak up publicly, but I assure you that at family gatherings this issue comes up and we vent our anger. Supporters of illegal immigration would not find a warm welcome at our family gatherings.
Israel
(sigh) That’s a beautiful comment, Israel
. I’m glad LaShawn agreed and chose to highlight it as one of the more profound comments today.
My hats off to you and your family!
I don’t want illegal Canadians here either. I would however like to see an American ID card that covers North America. I would also like to validate the economic need of illegal immigrants by… Hmmm i don’t know how i would do that beyond hometown incentives. I would like to see the US police the Mexican ports of entry everywhere. I have hispanic relatives. They like it here. They are legal. Mexico is a foreign country to them. They were appalled at some of the conditions there when they visited last year.
Mexico is for the rich to play. not the poor.
>>I would however like to see an American ID card that covers North America.>>
For what purpose?
I don’t want illegal anybodys here. I don’t consider people who enter a country–any country–illegally to be “immigrants”, any more than those folks in the nice horsie that Greece gave Troy were.
When I lived in California, the “URA racist” contingent was fond of claiming there are a number of Irish here illegally. As someone who is of partial Irish heritage, I said, and say, send them back to the Auld Sod. Illegal is illegal.
It is also interesting to note that when I lived in California, there were people in Tijuana passing out flyers telling the residents to come to San Diego and go on welfare. No joke.
Trish~
Last spring when we were having all those demonstrations, I heard a nurse from a Texas border town who had called into a San Antonio radio talk show telling about how pregnant Mexican women would get day passes to come across to the U.S. (I didn’t know there was such a thing…) for the sole purpose of visiting an American hospital to have their babies. Due to court precedent, it is illegal to turn illegals away from American hospitals. The hospital has to take the woman; instant Anchor Baby…
Col. Rodriguez, Olga Robles, Carmen Morales, Miguel Cruz, Claudia Garcia Spencer, Maria Chinowsjki and Mariann Davies founders of You Don’t Speak for Me! are proud to have Roseanna as our Illinois spokesperson. I never have defined myself in terms of color and don’t want anyone else to do so either. The illegal immigration issue is also a hot topic in my home, as I explain to my children, “play by the rules”, “when you’re a guest, be a nice guest” “mind your manners”, “don’t cut in line”, “dont cheat” “cheaters shouldn’t prosper” “do not take what is not yours to take”. Etc. A lesson some in the illegal immigration advocacy camp should brush up on, don’t you think?
“These fellow Hispanics create a definition of what it means to be a “Real Hispanic.â€
And so because my family and I view illegal immigration as just that – illegal immigration. We are deemed traitors, Tio Tacos, sellouts, self-haters, you name it by these “Real Hispanics.†”
Where, oh where have I heard this sort of talk before?
I somehow doubt they had to search very hard to come up with this tactic. The left has perfected it – demonize and illegitimize your opposition. It’s so much easier than debating the facts and having to defend the merit of your position – especially when you cannot.
I applaud this group. I am half hispanic–my father came to this country from Peru–LEGALLY. He did NOT approve of illegal immigration. I do not, either.
Okay someone here please tell me I heard this wrong. Last night on news, I hear that Bank of America is in the process of offering credit cards to illegal immigrants. I cannot even begin to imagine this. I know people who work legally every day who can’t get a credit card with even a minimal line of credit. So what is this all about. They’ll be able to get a credit card without a social security number. If this happens and these cards aren’t paid, you know who the cost will be diverted too?? I am seriously thinking of dropping all of my BOA accounts — BUT what if other banks follow suit? I can’t drop every bank. Oh well…..
My MIL is a legal immigrant. She followed the rules. I think that it is really unfair to give special preferences to one group of immigrants because of their ethnicity to the point that we ignore the fact that their immigration is illegal. It defies logic.
La Shawn:
Liberalism (including multiculturalism) is a mental disorder.
As Europeans have done, we have alienated a generation of youth that have come to believe that they can be “whatever they want to be” – except American.
Black Pahthers were a “new beginning” of separatists. Mexicans followed. Now we have Muslims who are “alienated”. “Alienated” from what: The best economy of our lifetimes.
I am NOT a racist in my love of America and in my hate of this INVASION we are suffering, I don’t care who they are, what color they are, what language(s) they speak or where they come from, if they aren’t here legally, put em OUT, and I mean NOW, no amnesty, no debate, no recourse, ILLEGAL means just that, illegal…
America is a land for all, but don’t try and come here and change the USA, if you want to come here legally and become a part of America, then by God, become an American, become LEGAL, speak English, take pride in THIS nation, and drop the hyphen…
“The left has perfected it – demonize and illegitimize your opposition. It’s so much easier than debating the facts and having to defend the merit of your position – especially when you cannot.”
It’s not for lack of trying…
33, you are not wrong. This story was in my local paper in November. Note the part that the Feds allow home sales to illegal immigrants.
“Several local and national banks make home loans to people without Social Security numbers. While some people without Social Security numbers are here legally, many who don’t have the numbers are illegal immigrants.
The Bank of Bartlett and other firms offer loans to people without Social Security numbers. First Tennessee Bank brokers similar loans through Banco Popular, a Puerto Rican bank. The Memphis Area Teachers’ Credit Union offers loans to people without Social Security numbers, but a spokeswoman said they must have legal status.
Federal banking regulators encourage banks to reach out to the “unbanked,” and permit home sales to illegal immigrants, officials with the Federal Reserve and Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation said.”
How about this?
“The sisters [two realtors] sometimes work with Bank of Bartlett, which accepts identification cards issued by foreign governments. The bank helps immigrants who lack Social Security cards obtain an individual tax identification number through the Internal Revenue Service, which doesn’t share the information with immigration enforcement officers.”
Why isn’t the IRS sharing that information with Immigration? What is wrong with these people? The IRS sure is willing enough to share information when it comes to me not paying my taxes.
“Bob Byrd, the CEO of the Bank of Bartlett, a local bank, said, ‘We’re doing this because we think it’s right,’ Byrd said. ‘We’re doing this because it’s legal. And we’re doing this because it’s profitable.’”
“We’re doing this because it’s right?†I could see doing it because it’s profitable — heck, snuff films are profitable, but again, what’s right about lending money to people who are in this country illegally?
This story made my blood boil
A question….Banco Popular is a Puerto Rican Bank. If that is the case, what is the issue? Last I checked, Puerto Ricans were citizens of the United States.
Gail wrote:
“Okay someone here please tell me I heard this wrong. Last night on news, I hear that Bank of America is in the process of offering credit cards to illegal immigrants. I cannot even begin to imagine this. I know people who work legally every day who can’t get a credit card with even a minimal line of credit. So what is this all about. They’ll be able to get a credit card without a social security number. If this happens and these cards aren’t paid, you know who the cost will be diverted too?? I am seriously thinking of dropping all of my BOA accounts — BUT what if other banks follow suit? I can’t drop every bank. Oh well…..”
Gail, you are correct, Bank of America IS INDEED offering credit cards to illegal immigrants! I saw it on The O’Reilly Factor tonight… I’m floored and disgusted! O’Reilly said he is taking his money out of BOA. Dennis Miller already has (showed his receipt for withdrawal on TV). O’Reilly made a good point: What if BOA gives a credit card to one of these illegal aliens and then they use it to buy a plane ticket, highjack the plane, and then fly it into a building? When it’s traced back to BOA, who’s butt is going to be on the line? Better yet, how are legal citizens of America going to feel about BOA when they find out? I’m still reeling over this one… We’re talking ILLEGAL ALIENS here!
If Banco Popular is giving loans to illegal immigrants, there is a problem, just as there is a problem if any other bank is lending money to illegal immigrants.
There’s nothing illegal in the lending of money. It’s a private contract between the lender and the customer. The customer’s residency status is irrelevant.
Angel…”A question….Banco Popular is a Puerto Rican Bank. If that is the case, what is the issue? Last I checked, Puerto Ricans were citizens of the United States.”
And Puerto Ricans are not illegal immigrants. They can’t be, since they’re citizens.
The bank is giving credit cards to ILLEGAL aliens, not Puerto Ricans.
Angel @42,
Perhaps that’s true, for now, but congress and the President of the USA could make changes where it would be illegal to give loans and credit cards to illegal immigrants…
The customer’s residency status should not be irrelevant. Too many businesses mark it too easy to exist in the U.S. as an illegal alien. That is why this problem is only getting worse, not better. Governmental authorities should do everything within their power to make being here illegally as difficult and uncomfortable as possible. Then, the people here without authorization will likely self-deport back to their country of origin, no matter where that is.
Okay…here’s the solution to the immigration problem in three easy steps:
1. Amnesty for all those here now that are working and law-abiding. Anyone who is neither is deported.
2. A 10 year moratorium on all immigration except for those seeking political asylum or those with the skill sets we are going to need to compete with China and India.
3. Free non-credit courses in English, civics and economics at all colleges.
That should just about cover it. I think all of the above is possible. Likely? No! Why? Because everything is geared toward the issue-driven voter. That’s why Tancredo is even taken seriously as a presidential prospect. Without this issue, his candidacy would be laughable.
Angel @42,
Perhaps it’s not illegal to lend money to illegal immigrants now, but laws could be enacted by congress and the President to make it illegal.
Angel, your plan will fail. Why? Illegal immigrants are already breaking the law, so they can’t adhere to the part about “law-abiding people.” They’re excluded at step one of your plan.
~We don’t need a moratorium on legal immigrants. They’re not the problem. Illegal immigrants are the problem. If anything, we should make it easier for legal immigrants–who, unlike the illegals, are actually law-abiding–to come here, especially if they’re skilled and educated.
~College classes are not free at universities–taxpayers are paying for them, and no illegal immigrant is entitled to have their education paid for by taxpayers. Period. They should have learned English before they came so they can apply for visas and everything else legal immigrants go through to get here. Let’s get rid of bilingual voting–the only people eligible to vote are citizens and AFAIK, the test is in English, so there’s no need for it.
~To sweeten the pot, fine and jail employers who employ illegal immigrants. Money talks when principles have been bound and gagged.
Tyrian,
I actually think my plan would work, particularly the moratorium. That’s what we used to do and it only included legal immigrants. This break allows the new arrivals to fully assimilate into the population. There’s a lot of research on this.
As far as I know, the folks who came over in the 1920s and 1930s learned English after they arrived for the most part.
The education piece is necessary. Obviously, it’s not “free”, but it would be in our interest to provide it. English classes have waiting lists right now. So, this idea that nobody is trying to learn English is a fallacy.
I think there should be an attempt to solve the problem. It’s ridiculous to think we can make all those folks go home. It makes much more sense to help them comply with the law and transition them into citizenship. It will cost much more to try to round them up and ship them out.
After all, we’re committing blood and treasure in a futile effort to make people who will eventually have to be partitioned from each other embrace Western-style democracy. If we have money for this, we certainly have money for something that will only make this country stronger.
Angel, I never said no one was trying to learn English. I said they’re not entitled to having taxpayers provide instruction when they–the illegal immigrants–were obligated to have learned English before imposing themselves on the population here. We, as citizens, as taxpayers, are not obligated to do anything to make their self-imposed burdens easier on them.
Certainly immigrants should assimilate. This is a given, and why I said there should be English-only ballots. But it’s not clear to me that every immigrant is having this difficulty. Whichever ones are having trouble assimilating certainly ought to have moratorium–and this should be backed up enforcing the immigration laws.
Tyrian,
When moratoriums on immigration were used in the past, it wasn’t to target individuals or ethnicities. It was meant in a general sense. More specifically, it was to allow us to absorb the social impact and costs incurred by our newest citizens.
As far as obligation, teaching English is to our benefit as well as theirs. So are you saying, legal immigrants don’t have to learn English until after they get here? Personally, I wouldn’t legally obligate anyone to learn English. But, again, it’s to their advantage because it allows them to participate in the larger culture and all that it offers.
I can guarantee you my ideas will have more traction as time goes on and we see the futility of trying to toss millions of people out of the country. If we welcome the people that are already here instead getting stuck on the idea that they’re criminals because they crossed the border to take menial jobs, we will see a decrease in the purely defensive sentiment that engendered the protests last summer. We will see a gratitude that we certainly aren’t seeing from Iraqis right now and a growing desire to be American in every possible sense of the word.
I don’t see them as criminals because they take menial jobs, Angel. I see them as criminals because they are criminals. Period. Full stop. Once they entered without leave to do so, they are criminals. It doesn’t matter what they do afterwards. They are still criminals. You get it? This is a fact, not an opinion.
It is not to my benefit to waste a dime providing anything for illegal immigrants. It is not to our benefit to have them here. You keep saying that it’s to our benefit to allow illegal immigration, and I’m going to have ask: since when is the public better off rewarding criminal behavior? Why is a citizen facing the possibility of needing two jobs to feed his family obliged to let one dime of his paycheck go to someone who is not supposed to be here, and whose presence depresses what wages he can get for some jobs? How is he served? Make your case. You want your ideas to get traction, but you forget, we’re in a democratic republic, and if the public is not satisfied that the man in that scenario is actually better off, your idea is going nowhere.
It is to our benefit to encourage legal, skilled, educated immigrants. I am aware of the purpose of past halts on immigration. Nevertheless, I say that if groups of (legal) immigrants have not proved to have difficulty assimilating, then it’s not a problem if we let them in. Since you bring it up, what (legal) immigrants are having this difficulty, and why do you believe they should not be the only ones targeted for any gate-closings?
You haven’t made the case for why we need to go to work so that illegal immigrants can have language instruction, or for why, if they want to learn English so badly, they can’t dip into their own pockets while they’re home. I expect to see a response that isn’t hand waving. I want a concrete reason why they should not be expected to take responsibility for their own problem.
Remember, people who create their own problems are not victims. You go to a country without leave to be there, what difficulties you encounter as a result of that are your lookout and no one else’s. I’m taking an adult’s understanding of this: people living outside the law are also outside the protection of the law. If you’re not supposed to be here, the taxpayers are not obliged to do anything for you except send you safely back to your country.
And I don’t think it will be necessary to round up people, either. Just fine and jail the ones who enable them to be here. They’ll get the message.
Tyrian,
We all know that entering the country illegally is a crime, but there is a question of degree. Is a shoplifter the same as a murderer? And, it is patently untrue that they are outside the protection of the law. And, it’s not a question of my desire to have some of my ideas applied. It’s a question of practicality.
As far as paying to learn English before they leave, why would they come here at all if they had the income to spend on an extra expense like English classes? The fact that some people have to work two jobs cannot be laid at the feet of illegal immigrants.
These are people that need to feed their families too. Otherwise, they would stay put. My problem with how you frame the issue is that the most realistic and compassionate way to solve the issue is put in front of you and you reject it out of hand. That is extreme. My position is the middle ground. Legal immigrants cost money to absorb as well.
Do you want to solve this problem in a realistic manner? Or, do you really think being motivated by an extreme version of nationalism will do it? Our country is known for many things, not the least of which is our compassion. These folks are fleeing economic disaster areas.
And, I do have “an adult’s understanding” of the problem, so I don’t know what that comment is referring to. I live in the same country as you do. I see the abuses. I also see that there is a potential to strengthen the country as a whole if this is handled the right way.
Not all hispanics support illegal imagration and the liberal left-wing news media will ignore them completly
Meanwhile, a border agent sits in prison :
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/Ramos021407
Instead of seeing agent Ramos in good health and spirits, the imprisoned Border Patrol agent still had the black, blue, and greenish-purple bruises all over the left side of his body, and even -God help us- the imprints of the very shoes of his attackers from the savage beating he endured some 11 days ago at the hands of a half-dozen fellow inmates in the prison to which he was transferred.
(snip)
Prison officials put him in solitary confinement, where he spends 23 hours a day, purportedly to keep the former law enforcement official safe from the other inmates who consider the imprisoned agent a desirable target.
This small, cramped space is nothing more than a metal and concrete closet. In fact, it was in such a concrete closet called “solitary confinement”, that Agent Ramos spent his initial hours after being severely beaten – a full 48 hours before being examined by any medical personnel.
(snip)
More thanks from an ungrateful nation.
It is both sad and ironic to think that suspected terrorists at Guantanamo are being provided with better accommodations than Agent Ramos.
http://www.agentramos.com or http://agentramos.blogspot.com/
More hand waving. I was hoping for a well-thought out response. You have made no case for why illegal immigrants are not responsible for their plight. Shoplifting is a crime? I need smelling salts I’m so shocked! Let me spell it out for you: you commit a crime, no matter how small (pilfering) or how big (murder) you pay for it. If I jaywalk I am not going to whine about getting a ticket. I deserve a ticket, because duh, I did the crime. That’s how an adult thinks. You do not get out of trouble by crying about how Billy did something worse.
When I say that criminals exist outside the protection of the law, it’s like this: if you steal something and try to sell it to me, but instead I steal the object from you, you cannot go to the cops. You have no legal recourse against me because your possession of the object was illegal in the first place.
When you enter a country illegally, you have no protection from a boss who puts you in unsafe working conditions, because you have no business being there in the first place. You cannot report him and you cannot sue. You are not protected by the law because you are breaking the law.
I do not care one bit about how hard the immigrant had it in his country. That does not excuse him imposing burdens on others when he sneaks in somewhere else. If he can manage the get-up-and-go to get himself to another country, he can manage to take the time to immigrate legally. If there was a case to be made for the contrary, what accounts for your failure to make one? You have been forced to resort to silly characterizations because you lack an argument. Whenever you feel tempted to do react that way, you should instead take the time to gather facts and learn to apply logic and reason to them.
For example, “extreme nationalism?” Please. Be serious. Be honest. Pick up a history book for an example of what that looks like. Wanting immigrants to respect our laws does not, and never will, come close to “extreme nationalism.” I take a dim view of those who pervert words and their meanings, so my advice is to either come as an honest broker or just let that be your last post to me. I do not have the time of day for you otherwise. I respect opinions, provided they’re informed opinions, and this “nationalism” comment has tipped me about which category you stand in.
Here’s my realistic immigration solution, which imposes no burden and still upholds respect for the law: fine and jail those employers who employ the illegal immigrants. Remove the burden from taxpayers by denying any taxpayer-funded benefits given on behalf of illegal immigrants. Unshackle the cops and let them arrest illegals when they encounter them. In other words, my solution is to enforce the law.
Hand waving? What does that even mean? I think my opinions are well thought out. You just don’t agree with them. Last I checked, I have a right to them even if you don’t like them.
You can take a dim view of whatever you like. I think I made a compelling case for my solutions on several counts. If you can’t differentiate between a malevolent criminal act and a benign one, then any discussion with you is a non-starter. You’re not going to convince me and I’m not going to convince you.
The strength of your case is basically, “Because I said so!” That’s pretty weak, Tyrian. And, if you want to insult me, that’s fine. History will be the final arbiter of how this issue was solved or not. So, that being said….this is my final post to you.
Angel, making unproven assertions is not the same as making a case. It’s the exact opposite, and that’s what I mean by handwaving. That characterizes exactly what you’ve been doing. I asked you, and you repeatedly failed to say how Americans benefit by having people in the country who exact burdens on them as taxpayers, and as workers. You just said, “we benefit.” That is not a case. That’s handwaving. I said they are criminals, which is a fact, and you reply that they’re not criminals, because they haven’t killed anyone, or that I only think they’re criminals because they work menial jobs. The best you can come up with is to imagine I have dark motives for wanting to see the law upheld. That behavior is a sure sign of someone who does not have a leg to stand on. But you call that making a case? Really? Then I guess my problem here is that I took you more seriously than you deserved. I won’t be making that mistake in the future. I am glad you’re taking your ball and going home. That’s the one thing I asked of you that you actually managed to do.
Wow. I concede that we must agree to disagree and your response is to insult me further. Again, I’m trying to be a gentleman. Perhaps that is simply too hard for you to grasp.
In Angel vs Tyrian, I vote for Tyrian.
Tyrian~
You seem to be having the same sort of circuitous back-an-forth as I’ve been having over at my place WRT my most recent post. Right now, will_b has had the last word, because I had to go to work today, and I haven’t had the time to deal with him today (nor do I feel like it – I’ll do it tomorrow). Go take a look, and feel free to join in.
Somebody explain to me how a moratorium on legal immigration will do anything to solve illegal ‘immigration’ – am I supposed to believe we will have a moratorium on illegal immigration, too? For how long? Who will implement it? How will it be done? When will it be done?
Explain to me how rewarding illegal acts while simultaneously punishing those who attempt to abide by the law will ’solve’ anything! What do you expect to be the result of this? What lesson will people take from it? How will it effect the choices they make?
Should we implement a moratorium on shopping while simultaneously dropping charges against any shoplifters? How about a moratorium on car sales while releasing all car-jackers? Will this help too?
Sorry, but I really cannot credit this as a serious argument.
In Angel vs Tyrian, I vote for Tyrian.
Of course, you do. I don’t think there’s anything circuitous about our “discussion” I feel one way, he feels another. But, somehow he “wins’ because I didn’t persuade him to budge. By that standard, don’t I win as well? This is a complicated issue that requires a measured response and a sane approach. That’s the perspective I tried to
offer.
I think there are more people out there who realize this than you think. I’m sure none of them are “the regulars”. But, I read this blog too and I disagree with the prevailing opinion here. Does that mean I’m not serious or educated about the issue? I don’t think so.
Stacey,
The moratorium was only part of the solution and if you look at my original post again, you will see that I made exceptions for educated and skilled immigrants. The moratoriums as practiced in the past only affected legal immigrants. There are costs from absorbing so many people from different culture, the most important one being social. It’s only a temporary time-out for us, not them.
Again, is it not a serious argument because you don’t agree. I think Tyrian made some compelling points, but I don’t agree with them. Does that mean I can’t take his argument seriously? We have a difference of opinion, plain and simple. I truly believe that eventually we would benefit from an act of goodwill such as amnesty or, at the very least, a guest worker program. But, since a “fence jumper” is to be treated as an offender and ,by definition, unworthy of living here, then nobody has to worry about it. In the meantime, nothing happens and these people continue to live on the margins.
I said Tyrian won because I find his arguments more compelling.
I have the same thoughts as Stacey does, re: a moratorium. Placing a moratorium on LEGAL immigration, in which the applicant must show how they will be a valuable member of society, will not solve the problem of “absorbing” the illegals already here. You stated a 3-point plan. Amnesty for “law-abiding” illegal aliens (I refuse to call them “illegal immigrants” – the term “immigrants” implies some sort of legitimacy on them) gets us nowhere – it does nothing to stop the flood of illegals coming over out southern border. The problem with illegal aliens was supposed to be fixed with the Immigration Reform & Control Act of 1986. All that happened was we got the amnesty without the enforcement. Since that big amnesty, there have been several smaller ones of the years for specified populations of illegal aliens. None of these amnesties have fixed the problem. IMHO, it has only made it worse. It gives the impression that all you have to do is make it to the US, and you will eventually be legitamized by an act of Congress somewhere down the line.
If someone is here legally and wishes to become a citizen, they have to learn English. I shouldn’t have to pay for them to learn with MY taxes, and neither should anybody else. But again, even if we had taxpayer funded English classes for illegal aliens DOESN’T fix the problem with the flood of illegals coming into this country.
I want enforcement only first. Once the government can prove they can maintain border security, then I might be willing to consider something beyond enforcement only. Based on the disastrous results of IRCA of 1986, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me…
The question Tyrian keeps asking is how do we benefit from the presence of illegal immigrants? Besides the fact they contribute untold hours of labor toward the engine that is the American economy, they apparently contribute up to $7 billion-with-a-B dollars a year in Social Security taxes. This is a benefit they will never be able to collect for two reasons: 1. They’re not citizens and 2. The majority of the Social Security numbers these taxes are collected under are phony.
After IRCA, SSA started receiving earnings numbers with these false numbers. So, the money got stashed away.
The Center for Immigration Studies, which is on your side in this issues estimates that the amount of taxes generated by illegals in 6.4 billion a year and that number keeps growing.
So, money that could conceivably be used to bail out Social Security and benefit us all, was contributed by those no-good illegals with no expectations on their part as far as tapping into that part of the system.
My challenge to Tyrian and the others who don’t take me seriously is what is the amount that illegals take from the system in regards to health care, welfare and other social services. And, keep in mind, the $7 billion figure is a couple of years old.(2002)
Angel, re: “My challenge to Tyrian and the others who don’t take me seriously is what is the amount that illegals take from the system in regards to health care, welfare and other social services.”
Tell that to Ed, whose family has been waiting 14 years to immigrate LEGALLY.
I have zero respect for line-cutting.
What part of “illegal” are you having a problem understanding?
That really doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m asking.
Angel, it’s the MOST CENTRAL issue in the entire debate. While illegals are pouring across the borders, people waiting for legal admission to the country are being pushed out of the line.
I simply can’t respect that.
I didn’t create the policy. We have to agree to disagree.
Ahhh, Angel says “they apparently contribute up to $7 billion-with-a-B dollars a year in Social Security taxes. This is a benefit they will never be able to collect..”
So, you’re suggesting we should keep illegal aliens around so we can collect social security taxes from them that they cannot recoup? How….mean of you. You just want to use the poor little folks like that???
Oh yeah! I forgot! You want to give them amnesty! So then they WILL be able to collect social security. But now I’m confused…is it still a ‘benefit’ for America???
Angel, I have a question for you. We are talking in circles here, and perhaps you can help us out. You started off saying you have ‘a solution to the immigration problem’.
What exactly do YOU mean by ‘immigration problem’?
What IS the problem? What’s wrong with just having completely open borders?
You know, I could swear that I heard a story last spring about someone trying to either float legislation, or someone trying to get some Congresscritters to support legislation, to give all those SS payments back to the “employee” who had them withheld, if they were an illegal alien from Mexico. Seems I also heard as part of that story that the Mexican government was pushing for this. Mexico needs to stay the he!! out of our politics! They need to clean their own house before they start telling others what to do.
Stacey,
See #46. Yes, “we” are talking in circles. I will never convince you and you will never convince me. I think you have to pick your battles. I just don’t see a guy who crosses the border to work as a criminal. I don’t want open borders. But, I think too many people use this issue as a cover for nativist attitudes.
Now if the Muslims would just form a similar group things could start to turn around. “Islamofacists, you don’t speak for me!” has a beautiful ring to it.
For the most part, Americans have graciously accepted immigrants with open arms. Unfortunately, for the last ten years, the sheer magnitude of immigrants flooding into the country has been overwhelming in terms of fiscal and social burdens, not the least of which is cratering schools and hospitals.
Americans are crying out…not because of racism or nativism or all the isms of the left. They are outraged by
NUMBERISM!!!!!!!
Let me guess, Jan. All the “isms of the left” are figments of our imagination.
Angel, if you “don’t want open borders”, why does your plan not address that problem in any way?
I guess I thought it was kind of obvious that if you have a moratorium on all immigration that means not letting people in. I did mention exceptions for those who have the education and skills to help our economy.
The reason I think the moratorium is key is that the culture of the country needs a chance to absorb people into it’s fabric. Problems occur with legal as well as illegal immigration. Look at France. The Muslims they are having a serious problem with immigrated legally to fix a labor shortage in the 1960s and 1970s. But, they didn’t take a time out. That is not the sole cause of France’s conflict with radical Islam, but it didn’t help either.
The only people we are “letting in” are the ones coming in legally. The others are just barging through the door.
In my home, I “let in” guests and other people I need to help me maintain my home (people providing me a service). Someone who enters without invitation or permission from me is guilty of something akin to “breaking and entering”.
I’ll never accept that as a legitimate analogy.
Then I guess we’ll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Angel;
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, but I do think it would be fair to say that there is a growing trend towards pathologizing negative behaviors.
Jan,
That is assuming these negative behaviors actually exist, right?
“You attract more flies with honey than you do vinegar”.
Don’t get me wrong I am not calling illegals “flies” but let us look at the PRINCIPLE here
1) we employ them with no real consequences for employers who do it.
2) we allow them to purchase homes.
3) Illegals can get food stamps.
4) Free medical care.
5) Some are on Medicaid.
6) Now American banks are extending them credit without any prior credit history.
The above is HONEY!
So, why not:
1)do not extend any benefits to them what so ever
2)Fine employers who employ illegals. I mean great big fines, possible jail time, make them pay taxes on each one they employed and were not paying taxes on.
See vinegar!
It may not solve the problem but it wouldn’t be as attractive to come to the USA.
That’s what I’m after, Alexander. If the benefits no longer outweigh the costs of being here illegally (or hiring illegals), the problem will be self-correcting. Employers willing to hire illegals will disappear. If illegals can’t find work, and if they can’t get access to social programs from OUR government, they will take themselves back to wherever they came from. I’d even be willing for our government to aid them in returning, without other penalties, if they turn themselves in.
This article, highlighting the cost of violent crime by illegals, makes the “unredeemable” social security payments look like chump change.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=737771
Bringing forth a highly contagious, incurable disease to be unleashed on our population with devastating effects. All because a few carriers of the disease, (look up: “Typhoid Mary”) were not found while legally immigrating to our country, because it came in with them as they illegally entered our country.
THIS is reason ENOUGH for me to want ALL illegal immigration brought to a screeching halt IMMEDIATELY!
And, yes, even you “Hug a Tree, You and Me, and let’s let everyone roam FREE” elitists, smugly hiding in your ivory towers, behind your high walled gated communities up on the hilltop will not be immune to the effects of this “immigrant” that you so happily allowed access to, just so you could feel good about how compassionate you are.
I wonder just how your compassion for the poor illegal will hold up when you come to the realization that what he brought with him has just wiped out your entire family.
Fox
WOW, Quite a lively debate with a lot of thought behind BOTH sides..
One thing that bothers me is the apparent disregard for the majority of Americans views on this issue.
Californians voted a while ago to do something about the Illegal invasion and it was a landslide result, I think it was Prop 187 or something, anyway the Losing side took it to a liberal judge who ruled it unconstitutional.
If I remember right it passed with like a 70% vote tally. so when does the Minority rule?
oh in a victim mentality state (Liberal)
Until the politicians and Judges are forced to feel the issues result first hand, they will continue to put the burden on US.
Angel agrees to disagree, which means when the majority wins in the next election involving ILLEGAL Immigration, he will be a partner in the ACLU’s litigation.
I would suggest the ACLU buy some land on the border with Mexico and try to keep the murderers and rapists off their land, as well as the damage to a minimum.
At some point these folks that are “OK” with the invasion are going to be a victim of one of these Illegals and then their tune might change… to bad it will take that.
Angel did say something fairly accurate, Tancredo would have been a “No Chance” candidate.
Now, he has my vote, unless someone with that kind of border view comes up between now and 2008
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