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When I saw the headline “U. Michigan courts minority applicants despite affirmative action ban,” I thought the story would be another example of leftist reporting. The headline, egregious though it is, is misleading. It seems to express the sentiments of Mary Sue Coleman, president of the University of Michigan and hater of Proposal 2, rather than the college reporter. If that’s the case, I’ll cut the “junior journalist” some slack.
Coleman, on the other hand, is a different story. In the minds of leftists, anyone who favors equal treatment in the college admissions process is somehow against “diversity” (read: blacks).
Pandering to a black audience at a black church (sound familiar?), Coleman “delivered a resounding reaffirmation of the university’s dedication to diversity” and got a “standing ovation.” Based on her previous statements about Proposal 2, the Michigan law that bars skin color preferences in government hiring and admissions, I suspect her pabulum speech was a rant against the people of Michigan for having the gall to believe in equal treatment over preferences. What the article fails to mention and what liberals rarely get right is that being anti-race preferences is not the same as being anti-black.
Pay attention, Ms. Coleman:
The original purpose behind affirmative action was to reach out to Americans once excluded from certain admissions and hiring processes because of race and include them in a wider pool of candidates. The idea was to give qualified blacks an opportunity to apply to colleges and for jobs previously closed to them. What affirmative action turned into was a racial spoils system by which underqualified blacks were admitted or hired, despite not being as qualified as everyone else in the pool. Do you see the distinction?
If Coleman had been speaking to a room full of black conservatives, I can tell you this, she wouldn’t have received a standing ovation. More like a telling-off. 
Liberals like Coleman make Proposal 2 sound like a throwback to Jim Crow. To liberals, banning race preferences means being anti-black. To the contrary. If one favored turning away equally or more qualified blacks in an admissions or hiring pool because they’re black, he/she most definitely could be considered anti-black. That’s not what’s going on, however, and Coleman knows it. But she’s part of the keep-black-folks-stupid movement, so what can you expect?
I’m one of only a few black bloggers/writers speaking out against lowered standards for blacks (which makes me a “hater†of my people), and sometimes it’s maddening. But being a “voice in the wilderness” is what I’ve been for three years. Here’s to 30 more…
Update: For unbelievers in the audience, here’s just a sample of what goes on at colleges and universities with separate admissions tracks (i.e., race preferences). I linked to this article some months ago, but in case you missed it the first time around (emphases added except section heading):
The studies are based on data supplied by the University itself, pursuant to freedom-of-information requests filed by CEO and the Michigan Association of Scholars. The studies were prepared by Althea Nagai, a resident fellow at CEO, and can be viewed on our website, www.ceousa.org.
Severe discrimination favoring black applicants over white and Asian applicants was found at all three schools in all four years for which data were received (1999, 2003, 2004, and 2005, the most recent year for which data were available). Hispanics were also favored, but by less; frequently whites were given preferences over Asians, although to a still smaller extent.
…
Undergraduate Admissions
It is noteworthy that race and ethnicity are apparently more heavily weighted in undergraduate admissions now than in the system declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 2003.In the most recent year for which data were available (2005), the median black admittee’s SAT score was 1160, versus 1260 for Hispanics, 1350 for whites, and 1400 for Asians. High-school GPAs were 3.4 for the median black, 3.6 for Hispanics, 3.8 for Asians, and 3.9 for whites.
In the four years analyzed, UM rejected over 8,000 Hispanics, Asians, and whites who had higher SAT or ACT scores and GPAs than the median black admittee—including nearly 2700 students in 2005 alone.
The black-to-white odds ratio for 2005 was 70 to 1 among students taking the SAT, and 63 to 1 for students taking the ACT. (To put this in perspective, the odds ratio for nonsmokers versus smokers dying from lung cancer is only 14 to 1.)
In terms of probability of admissions in 2005, black and Hispanic students with a 1240 SAT and a 3.2 high school GPA, for instance, had a 9 out of 10 chance of admissions, while whites and Asians in this group had only a 1 out of 10 chance.
These disparities are reflected in subsequent academic performance at the University of Michigan, where blacks and Hispanics earn lower grades, and are less likely to be in the honors program and more likely to be on academic probation than whites and Asians.
Whether or not you support race preferences and how ever you justify supporting them, you can’t argue, with a straight face, that blacks admitted under the University of Michigan’s admissions system are just as qualified as other applicants. Based on Roger Clegg’s research, one can truthfully make this statement: Black applicants are underqualifed compared to whites and Asians.
Argue that it doesn’t matter, if you like, or that special treatment is historically justified, or quibble over the term “underqualified,” but you can’t argue away the numbers.
This system of lowered standards for blacks is what University of Michigan president Mary Sue Coleman supports.
Also, see this recent article in The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. Although the article makes at least one erroneous assumption, it’s still worth reading. An excerpt referencing the University of Michigan (emphases added):
Far more disturbing is the poor black student graduation rate at the academically selective University of Michigan. This is a huge state university of 40,000 students. And performance there is a national bellwether. Only 67 percent of entering [black] students at the University of Michigan go on to graduate. Currently there are nearly 1,900 black students at the University of Michigan, the largest black enrollment of any high-ranking college or university. If these black students graduate at the same rate as their peers in the recent past, more than 600 of them will fail to earn their bachelor’s degree.
As for the nation’s other high-ranked institutions, only three other schools have a black student graduation rate below 70 percent. They are the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Colby College, and Carleton College.
Update II: Commenter Ben makes a good point (emphasis added):
You know what’s really painful about this?
In a school like that, the typical white or asian student is going to be, on the rough average, better prepared academically than the average black student. And it’s going to show, and everyone is going to see it, and it will only reinforce racial stereotypes all round. By saying “we will accept a poorer level of academic preparedness from blacks†the faculty will create a disparity where none existed! What good is diversity if it only adds to the problem? In a class of a hundred, 3 black kids who are every bit a match for their white counterparts will be a strong example against stereotypes, but 10 black kids who are there because the standards were lowered for them will make it worse, and even obscure the effect of the 3!
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Doris Taylor Walls, high school bureaucrat, claiming to speak for students: “The simple fact that the university stood up to fight for diversity matters to them.”
Does that statement mean ANYTHING at all? “Stood up to fight for diversity?” So… the goal is this holy grail of “diversity” (whatever in the world that means) and not actually EDUCATING people? Ok, got it.
Leftists don’t even know the definition of Diversity.
“Competition and selection” are part of the plan, and Racial Preferences eliminate these components.
Here is definition from MS Bookshelf 2000
di·ver·si·ty
di·ver·si·ty (di-vûr?si-te, di-) noun
plural di·ver·si·ties
1. a. The fact or quality of being diverse; difference. b. A point or respect in which things differ.
2. Variety or multiformity: “Charles Darwin saw in the diversity of species the principles of evolution that operated to generate the species: variation, competition and selection†(Scientific American).
As far as I’m concerned, if one supports lowered standards for blacks, they qualify as liberals, whether or not they call themselves conservatives. Next time, skip the personal insults, and I may approve future comments. – Admin
You’re not a hater La Shawn. Just informed.
we want 60 more…
La Shawn,
What makes you think Ms. Coleman wasn’t reaching out to qualified Blacks?
I’ve got to admit that I’ve read plenty of your blog entries on affirmative action and can’t understand why you are against it, especially when you acknowledge that you understand its purpose: “to give qualified blacks an opportunity to apply to colleges and for jobs previously closed to them.”
I get the feeling that you and other Black conservatives think you are the only qualified Blacks in America; other Blacks are getting a hand out.
I also don’t understand why you don’t have the same fire and venom for other classes of people who get points. (I’m a veteran who gets 5 points when I apply for certain jobs.) For example, it is my understanding that the University of Cincinnati, and most colleges, give preference to students whose parents graduated from the institution. For many decades, Blacks couldn’t enroll at many colleges. So, only students eligible for this form of preference would be people whose parents had white skin. I guess I’d like to know why there isn’t the same sort of crusade against all preferences.
Nate – Although the Unversity of Michigan may be reaching out to qualified blacks, they’re not admitting blacks who are AS QUALIFIED as they require non-blacks to be, and I base that statement on studies like this one:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWI1YTJiMzIxOGI1NWJmOWU5ODc5YWU4YjFhODU0NjA=
Look at those numbers, for crying out loud. That’s only a small sample of what goes on in colleges and universities across the country.
Coleman believes that Proposal 2 is somehow anti-diversity when it is not. It’s anti-race preferences, and that’s a BIG difference.
I get the feeling that you and other Black conservatives think you are the only qualified Blacks in America; other Blacks are getting a hand out.
Where you get that idea is a mystery, and as I tell other black liberals, don’t dump your frustrations against “other blacks conservatives” on this blog. I make no arguments about what I am or am not qualified to do, so it does you no good to read erroneous assumptions into my motives. I want blacks to be judged by the same standards as others, yet liberal types resist this. Why???
As to your confusion about why I’m against so-called affirmative action, I’m surprised, Nate. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that you’re a long time reader of this blog. I’ve written over and over again why I object to race preferences and why I believe legacy admissions, athletic admissions, etc., are fundamentally different from skin color preferences. If you somehow missed those posts, the one you’re commenting on reiterates some of those reasons.
Allow me to add another reason why those types of preferences are different. By the way, if I had my way, all preferences, except those based on grades and test scores, would be done away with. But here are two differences: 1) Race preferences, unlike legacy and athletic preferences, perpetuate stereotypes about racial inferiority; 2) On top of that, this country went through a virtual revolution to REMOVE race as a consideration, particularly in GOVERMENT hiring and admissions. We didn’t shed blood to dismantle legal discrimination against athletics or legacies. The battle was fought to take the government out of the SKIN COLOR game.
The sword cuts both ways, my friend, and blacks who support skin color privileges now will be singing a different tune later once government starts discriminating against them ONCE AGAIN, this time in favor of hispanics.
Any more questions? This blog contains three year’s worth of archived answers.
30 more years indeed.
Keep up the good work, full armour of God, you are being held up daily to Him.
#6 Nate,
The eloquent Ms. Barber has said it all.
I am curious, though. How do you know that qualified blacks are not being admitted to colleges because of their skin color?
My experience is that qualified blacks carry an extra bonus for admission or hiring because of their skin color. In fact, I have participated in hiring decisions for one job opening in which three applicants were equally qualified, but only one was black. The black got the job because the area of employment needed more “black representation” for the statistical purpose of satisfying the “needs” of the employment census.
I am further curious about this whole designation of being “qualified.” I sat on a jury in a suit brought by a black man who was passed over for a job with the fire department. His training and skills to fight fires were excellent. In the course of the trial, it became obvious that the guy carried a “racism chip” on his shoulder that would have introduced critical morale problems within the department. He had not been hired for just that reason. And, he lost the suit.
This, of course, is one particular case. But there are many issues in a resume that are often the deciding factor for admission or hiring.
I can’t get the National Review article to open, but I’ll keep trying until I can… I’d like to better understand where you are coming from.
I can’t speak for “liberal types” or “black liberals”. Why would you ask me to speak for a group of people after chastising me for grouping you in with Black conservatives?
I can tell you that I don’t believe things are fair in America. People aren’t judged by the same standards. Preferences are given to all sorts of people, for all sorts of reasons. You may personally desire to see all preferences done away with, but there isn’t a nationwide crusade to accomplish this. (And if there is a movement to do away with all preferences, it doesn’t have the steam that the anti-affirmative action movement has.)
Considering that race/skin color is only one factor in determining qualifications, I don’t have a problem with a Black person gaining an advantage over an otherwise equally qualified white person. Why? Because I understand that Blacks have historically been disadvantaged in this country. The playing field isn’t anywhere near level. And lots of other people receive preference, including white kids who qualify for a legacy admission.
Come on, La Shawn.
1) There is no proof that race preferences perpetuate stereotypes about racial inferiority or that athletic and legacy preferences don’t. College level athletes are still considered “dumb jocks” and children of alumnus are viewed as “kids born with a silver spoon”. I think the difference is that, for hundreds of years, there has been an effort to make Blacks feel inferior. Sure, some people, including some Blacks, have bought into this white supremacy. Some Blacks internalize the notion that race preferences mean we are not equal to others. I reject that notion.
2) This country didn’t go through a virtual revolution to REMOVE race as a consideration, particularly in GOVERNMENT hiring and admissions, or shed blood to take the government out of the SKIN COLOR game. The battle was fought to dismantle racial discrimination. The aim was to stop government institutions from hindering Black people from getting an education (or job, or house). Racial preferences no more discriminate against non-Black people, or stop them from doing something, than Veteran preferences “discriminate” against non-Veterans.
I can’t wait to read the linked article, but I’m guessing the Blacks are qualified.
Finally, (and yes, I understand that this blog contains three year’s worth of archived answers) if there were no point preference, would you continue to oppose affirmative action? I don’t want you to be a spokesperson for other conservatives, but do you think they would continue to oppose affirmative action if it was somehow brought back to its original intent?
FYI, the National Urban League released a report last week finding that Blacks continue to earn far less than their white counterparts even when Blacks have the same amount of education and are in the same jobs as whites.
Nate, no one disputes the fact that prejudice still exists. The problem is that prejudice and resultant unfairness are simply not going to be erased by installing OTHER forms of unfairness and prejudice.
Heliotrope
I think some people think that this “extra bonus” applies to way more situations than it actually does, but to the extent that Blacks are given such an extra bonus in some circumstances, just like athletes, or veterans, or rich white kids with parents who are college grads, why single out the race preferences? If this is really about across the board fairness, why is racial preference the only national crusade?
Then you know there are many things that go into determining what makes a person “qualified”. Until recently, many cities in Ohio gave points to people who lived there. Why would this make them more qualified than someone who didn’t live in the city?
Nate –
I don’t know what’s wrong with National Review’s site, but I hope they fix it soon. The numbers are shocking, at least to me. However, if one believes blacks admitted with substantially lower scores than everyone else are “qualified,” then in your mind, I’m wrong, and you’re correct. Allow me to drop some links that will open:
Heather Mac Donald: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_prop209.html
Roger Clegg, the author of the National Review article, based it on his studies found here: http://ceousa.org/
Look in the right sidebar to find and download the studies on the University of Michigan’s admissions standards. After you’ve read at least one, then come back and tell me, with a straight face, that the black students admitted with those scores and graduation rates were just as qualified as the others.
And I’m not letting you comment again until you do.
RedBeard
But no one is taking anything away from non-Blacks. Racial preference doesn’t prevent qualified whites from applying to college or being admitted. No “Blacks only” signs are at colleges with racial preferences.
And if racial preferences result in unfairness and prejudice, you certainly must agree that other preferences do also.
But wouldn’t true affirmative action be firing Ms. Coleman and replacing her with a Black male President????
The ultimate sacrifice would be for Ms. Coleman to step aside and offer up her job to a “minority”.
Always fascinating that these overwhelmingly White college administrators want affirmative action for everybody but themselves.
#12 Nate asks: “do you believe that UNqualified Blacks are being admitted to colleges because of their skin color?”
I know it and it is hard not to prove it. Many colleges and universities have different bottom SAT scores for groups that are targeted for increased admissions.
A simple survey of the make up of special help programs to get students up to speed to handle college work will tell the tale.
The huge disparity between the per cent of blacks who graduate from college and blacks who get into graduate programs is instructive.
And more………..
There is so much help out there for minorities it’s not funny. Grants, scholarships etc. are there for the enterprising minority student to use. The only advantage I have is that I’m over 35, yep there was a scholarship out there for students over 35.
No I didn’t apply for it, even though I’m paying my own way. Talk about incentive to get a good return on my investment.
Greg,
There are scholarships for everything under the sun. A lot of them are privately funded. I don’t know what you’re ethnic background is, but there may be a few out there for you based on that. Or, your grades.
Everyone on here pretty much knows my stance on AA so I won’t rehash that but I will say this.
Inherently we all humans and all selfish. Folks tend to not be in favor of a policy until it affects their own kid or their own policy. For the commenters on here with kids, if your child was kept out of a university because of a legacy admit, I bet 10 dollars to a dime, you’d be pissed. I think it’s dishonest to not be aggravated by one and not the other.
What I get from the whole anti-AA movement (in particular as it relates to higher education) is that if you are a minority and you don’t meet the criteria for entrance from the onset, then please do us a favor and don’t bother. I don’t think anyone has the right to tell a person not to apply, especially to a state supported university be it flagship or not. I recognize that some students struggle academically after being admitted but some don’t. So then what?
I would have respect for an argument that says some minority (and white for that matter) students don’t meet the qualitifications for admission to a ‘flagship’ university due to the fact that we have a screwed up k-12 educational system. However, there are some fine second-tier universities that these students might benefit from attending. And that’s why I am opposed to race preferences in higher education.
You know what’s really painful about this?
In a school like that, the typical white or asian student is going to be, on the rough average, better prepared academically than the average black student. And it’s going to show, and everyone is going to see it, and it will only reinforce racial stereotypes all round. By saying “we will accept a poorer level of academic preparedness from blacks” the faculty will create a disparity where none existed! What good is diversity if it only adds to the problem? In a class of a hundred, 3 black kids who are every bit a match for their white counterparts will be a strong example against stereotypes, but 10 black kids who are there because the standards were lowered for them will make it worse, and even obscure the effect of the 3!
Ben
Ben,
“In a class of a hundred, 3 black kids who are every bit a match for their white counterparts will be a strong example against stereotypes, but 10 black kids who are there because the standards were lowered for them will make it worse, and even obscure the effect of the 3!”
What’s great about this is contrary to most anti-AA arguments, you acknowledge there are qualified blacks out there. Most arguments don’t even consider the premise.
Angel, I’d love to see a source that demonstrates “most anti-AA arguments” are contrary to what Ben said. I’ve never read such a thing among “most anti-AA arguments.”
This probably is closer to what “most anti-AA arguments” entail: There aren’t enough qualified (based on a school’s required grade and score thresholds) blacks to admit to supposedly elite schools like Michigan to satisfy some arbitrary quota or to achieve proportional representation at these schools, but such black students do exist. If Michigan admits only a handful of blacks that test into the school, so be it. But constitutional problems crop up when schools accept students based on race just to ensure more brown faces on campus. The results of such disparities are alarmingly and painfully obvious.
I wrote a post where I asked proportional representation supporters for a reasonable explanation about why they considered it important.
Result: *crickets chirping*
Unless you’re prepared to show proof, please refrain from claiming that “most” anti-race preferences folks don’t believe there are ANY qualified blacks. That’s obviously false on its face!
LaShawn,
The premise that there are no qualified blacks always pops up in these arguments. I’m against affirmative action because I know we’re out here. It really does come up a lot. Because, like it or not, there are people motivated to be anti-AA by racial animus. It’s not like I’m telling you to believe in Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. Those folks hitch their wagon to legitimate discussion or arguments all the time.
OK, Angel, forget about the proof, since it doesn’t exist. I’ll just take your word for it, though I’ve never heard “most” anti-preference folks say it (and I’m not into reading minds) and though I’ve been discussing, researching, and writing about preferences for years.
And I wasn’t born this morning, you know. I’m a grown woman who is well aware that some people are “anti-AA by racial animus.” Did you know that some people are pro-AA “by racial animus,” too? And your point is?
What makes a student qualified for a certain college? In this current day and age of grade inflation, NCLB law, Standardized test fixing (having doctors label a kid disabled so they can have an untimed ACT/SAT) and the new trend in college admission policies developmental admissions. If you do not know what developmetal admissions are it is selling admissions to the highest bidder in search of donations. I find it shameful people only look at one form of preference in college admissions. The low hanging fruit theory.
On a side note, why is it always posted here examples of unqualified minorities getting jobs and promotions over whites. In the real world of profitable successful departments within a company they only care about one thing can you do the job or learn the job quickly and work well within a team.
Alright, I read the National Review article (I was underwhelmed by Roger Clegg’s arguments) and I absolutely can argue, with a straight face, that, based on what I read, Blacks admitted to the University of Michigan are just as qualified as other applicants. How? Because I realize that test scores and GPAs are not the only factors used to determine who is qualified.
[So the lower graduation rates, academic probation and such mean nothing to you, don't change your "just as qualified" argument at all? OK. Your hypotheticals below mean nothing, Nate, esp. with real facts and real numbers staring you in the face. But I'll allow you to have your say. - Admin]
Arguing that racial preferences are immoral, or anti-American, or no good way to determine who will graduate is one thing, but to argue that they lead to unqualified Blacks getting admitted to college is, I believe, just dishonest.
Suppose I’m a teacher with a class of 30 students. A local ice cream vendor gives me 10 coupons for free ice cream to give to my students. I announce that any student who gets a score of 90% or above on the next test may be eligible to get a free ice cream cone. Getting an A is one factor in determining who ultimately gets the reward. Well, because I am such a good teacher, 15 of my students get an A! To narrow the field down to 10, I don’t have to give coupons to the students with the highest test scores. I can, rightfully, use attendance, or attitude (I’m the one who judges who has the best attitude), or deservability, or economic situation… Now, suppose 5 of my A students are Black, 5 are white, and 5 are Asian. And, just to keep this argument easy to follow, lets say the Asian kids all got 100%, the white kids all got 95%, and the Blacks all got 90%. But the Asian kids have bad attitudes and poor attendance records. I decide to give the coupons to the white and Black kids. My point: the decision to give the coupons was never just about who had the highest score. Likewise, the decision to hire an employee or admit a kid into college is not just about one or two things.
Some of you will surely say that my example didn’t deal with race, which is your problem with race preferences. This is true. And race shouldn’t be a factor in a decision like this. In areas where discrimination has been used against Black people in the past, or where the government is involved, like in funding higher education, I think race preferences are morally justified.
Just for Angel, here’s a link to a clip of “It’s Bad, You Know” by R.L. Burnside. Seems to fit somehow.
http://www.smokecds.com/mp3/3132.mp3
Wow, those numbers are chilling. Here is what they mean, well part of what they mean.
White students will be the most qualified, smartest, and most successful students on campus. Black students will be the least able to compete as a group.
Why? Because you are selecting the talented tenth (hat tip to WEB DuBois) of the white kids and are applying the least stringent criteria to the black kids. The most talented black kids will compete just fine, but the less qualified will not be able to cut it when compared with the white, asian, and latino kids.
It is a set up for failure, and is awful policy. If you want minorities to excel, strengthen the criteria for them and water them down for the white kids. The minority students will dominate. I think race neutral criteria are the best way though.
Can you imagine if the NBA had race based quotas???? There would be the black athletes and the white guys who stand on the court and watch them. Because you would have to have 1/3 of the team white, so you would dig deeper into the talent pool, and hire less qualified players. It would make the white guys look totally outclassed, because they would be! Only the best, most talented black players would make the teams, while marginal and token white players would stink up the court.
It is not about race, it is not about diversity, it is about having a simple understanding of competition and selection bias.
Trey
Sorry Angel, I’m white and old!
So for me I either earn it or I don’t get in…
Uncle Ruckus, it isn’t all hocus pocus. Clearly the standards mean something. When a college asks for a certain score, it’s because that score indicates the preparation you need to succeed at that school. Yes, there are schools that hand out A’s like candy, but at other schools those A’s are equal to C’s and D’s. That’s why tests like the SAT’s are needed.
And let’s explore the job world for a second. There is a great deal of “credentialism” going on, which I think is a mistake. For example, a competent secretary shouldn’t need more than a high school diploma, yet these days she needs a college diploma. This is partly because she could have gone to the first kind of high school in the previous example.
Yet, all things being equal, for any job you still have to have a minimum requirement for who can do it. If McDonald’s says you need to do long division to handle the money, that’s a minimum standard that leaves out even some people who went to high school. A kid can walk in not knowing how to do the cash machine, but he can be trained for it if he meets that minimum math standard.
If a network administrator has to be able to do basic algebra to subnet an IP address, that’s still a minimum standard. You may not know how to subnet the address going in, but if you know basic math you could be trainable. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think companies do care if they have to give you remedial instruction just to make you trainable.
It’s the same with schools. If one school neglected to teach you to write essays, and never gave you anything more advanced than Dick and Jane to read, this will be reflected in your SAT’s. If the school is like U of M and ignores that detail because you’re the right color, you will flunk out if you end up in English 101 where you’re expected to analyze say, “the Mediterranean influence on Shakespeare.”
““In a class of a hundred, 3 black kids who are every bit a match for their white counterparts will be a strong example against stereotypes, but 10 black kids who are there because the standards were lowered for them will make it worse, and even obscure the effect of the 3!—
In reality, the substantial majority of black kids fall within the admissions standards–I’d reverse the 10 and the 3, and note that (1) the obscuring effect is the perceptive problem of the other students, and (2) the psychological effects of AA are not really amenable to any rigorous analysis.
Angel your argument about where most anti-Affirmative Action movements come from was completely incorrect.
I am sure that you will find some racial animus among those who fight against racial preferences, but the vast majority of the people I’ve met hate AA for the simple reason that its inherently unfair to those that aren’t receiving the lowered standards.
And as Ben pointed out, the lowered standards for African Americans at many universities isn’t helping them to succeed after college. Instead a black graduate from most top level universities is seen as a beneficiary of a system that refuses to hold them to high standards. Their skill levels are suspect, and any failures end up tarring the whole group. (In California there was an incident were an African-American who got through med school due to racial preferences was implicated in the death of 2 of his surjery patients, the fact that he was black and an beneficiary of AA came out and resulted in a backlash against other black doctors, including many who were fully qualified.)
Also you get things like what’s happened to me. My last name happens to look and sound Hispanic. I’ve discovered that because of that I can get job interviews sometimes for jobs I know I’m not qualified for, but I end up feeling insulted because the person interviewing me is usually openly disappointed that I”m caucasian and he wanted to interview a Hispanic to fill a racial quota.
I’ll admit that racial prejudice and animus has hurt some groups over the years in the US, but trying to balance it by lowering standards will not work. Any honest reading of US history will show that asians were also heavily discriminated against back in the early 1900’s, but now dominate in many areas of the business and engineering world. They succeeded not because of an affirmative action plan granted them by others, but because they took responsiblity to work hard, study longer and perform better in their chosen fields.
When AA is gone and all Americans do that, the problems you worry about will disappear.
It is all a dark art. The selection process for a job has the catch all phrase of “or equivalent experience”. As for your example of the network administrator. If one administrator has no certifications but has designed and maintained several large complex networks compared to a someone who has a degree and a boatload of certifications but has not accomplished as much. Who would you hire?
As for college admissions you still have to address the questions of grade inflation and standardized test rigging. Does that student really have a 3.9 or did they get their grades boosted a few times over time. Or, did the other student have tougher grading teachers. But, I guess your saying that a test score is a true indication of ones ability to comprehend and learn.
It seems to me that the basic problem that we must deal with is the perception that race is still a factor in access to success. Until this nation is at a place where someones racism CANNOT IN ANY WAY create an additional hurdle to a black person’s success, we will still have this argument. Look at it this way, as a black man, I have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to hinder a white man’s access to success, even if I were a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam. I cannot put ANY obstacles in his way SIMPLY because he is white. Until the creation of A.A. policies, blacks could routinely be hindered FOR NO OTHER REASON than the fact that they were black. Things have gotten better, to be sure, but since there is no factual basis for racist attitudes, why is it so difficult to raise a generation in which racism does not exist? That is why A.A. programs, however you might feel about them, are held onto as much as possible.
Any honest reading of US history will show that asians were also heavily discriminated against [in the USA] back in the early 1900’s, but now dominate in many areas…
This also applies to Jewish people.
LaShawn,
I live in Boston. I know what I hear when the topic come up. I want it gone so people will have to shut their mouths! There are always going to be people motivated by racial animus that try to “diguise” their real views.
Ask the Minutmen Project folks why they needed help from the FBI to vet volunteers.
#33 Uncle Ruckus brings up the “dark art” in college admissions.
The admissions department of large colleges have a fairly good picture of the quality of education coming out of many individual high schools. Some high schools are known to move students through with not much education, while others are known to award quality diplomas.
One of the reasons Advanced Placement classes which can carry college credit have become so important for college admission is because the AP students are scored on a competitive, national exam that is colorblind.
On another note, I have a a confession to make. I was always very careful in grading my advanced level black students. They were a precious and closely watched commodity. I cut some of them a lot of slack, because the political fallout of being colorblind was too stressful. As I was a teacher of ethics, the burden on this hypocrisy was too great for me and I chose to give up the classroom I loved so much.
I work with more than a few (black) students at a top rated university who are in over their heads. No one wants to flunk them, so they pay me (and others) to try to help them stay in the swim.
The same university goes ga-ga over its top performing black students and makes sure they get all the advantages and exposure to unique educational opportunities possible. (There is an emphasis in advocating for domestic black students over foreign black students.)
I think it is fair to say that, generally speaking, there are a some fairly deep tracks that weak students can take to crawl through college. (Communications, sports management, “…..” studies, etc.) When these students get out of college, they find they can not land the good paying jobs they expected were waiting for them.
Affirmative Action has caused enormous damage; not the least of it to the education process itself.
Mark,
Where did I ever state that I was pro-AA?
“Sorry Angel, I’m white and old! So for me I either earn it or I don’t get in… ”
I’m neither so I guess I didn’t earn my success! This is what aggravates me about this argument. Why would you say something like that, Greg? Do you really believe that?
Lashawn, I may have this wrong, but I thought the goal of universities in America was to give bright students in poor schools the opportunity to attend a top rated college.
It appears to me that there are many bright minority students that can’t flourish because of the lack of resources in their schools. One can’t contest that the levels of educational opportunities are extremely limited in urban schools—ex, AP courses, language courses, SAT prep courses. I’ve read that such courses are a often found in suburban schools.
In my opinion, it seems that the high number of black students dropping out of college has to do more on a personal level (inability to adapt to a predominately white environment) than an academic level. I mean we can agree that personal problems play on the student’s academic success. And I don’t think you can compare Asian Americans because statistics show they have a higher favorable assimilation (social) than any other minority group in America.
I really believe it has a lot to do with the environment. For example, more black students from Historical Black Colleges and Universities go on to get advanced higher degrees from the “elite/prestigious” colleges than from any other college.
That has to say something. And those same HBCU never rank high on the U.S./College ranks.
But I do agree with your premise on why you are not in favor of AA on college campuses. I just don’t think that the statistics you posted give a complete picture on the factors contributing toward academic success in college.
Plus, I believe Americans should have more focus on the inequity among the U.S. schools rather than “lower” admission standards.
But, again, this is a French woman looking in.
Heliotrope, so you are telling me only black college students receive such help? I will refrain from calling your post fraudulent. But you are a aware one of the biggest problems in Americas Institutions of Higher Learning is grade inflation. http://gradeinflation.com
So, if you what you posted is true you have left several factors out (legacy, developmental and special admissions). By implying only black students are over their head is outrageous.
To validate what you claim you must address grade inflation. Also, please address as your “over their head black students” with other special admission students. In addition are you aware there is one elite American university that has 42% development and legacy admissions. Can you guess which one.
One final thought how do you know how a student was admitted or do just assume by the skin color?
Mark
What lowered standards? Does repeating something over and over again make it fact in your mind? The Black students being accepted into the University of Michigan are qualified. Period.
Says who? You? Again, just because YOU think this way, doesn’t make it universal.
To: Delwyn X. Campbel
You said:
Look at it this way, as a black man; I have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to hinder a white man’s access to success, even if I were a card-carrying member of the Nation of Islam. I cannot put ANY obstacles in his way SIMPLY because he is white.
I say:
Are you saying that NO black men (or women)have the ability (or in a position) to discriminate against a white man? What if you are a hiring manager? If it is possible for a “black man” to be a hiring manager, your case is shot all to hell. You’re not one of those folks that thinks black people cannot be racists “because they do not hold the power”?
La Shawn. I went back and re-read the articles you linked to, and noticed they contained an awful lot of “fuzzy” math. (Maybe I just don’t understand those big numbers considering I’m Black.)
From the article.
So what! No where in the article does it mention what the qualifying SAT score or GPA is. And the article also deals with median scores, which most probably means that there are some Blacks who have higher SAT scores and GPAs than the Latino or Asian kids.
How many Hispanics got rejected? How many Asians? How many whites? How many Blacks got rejected? How many Blacks got admitted? The article says they had higher scores and GPAs than the median Black admittee but neither says how much higher the non-Black admittee’s scores and GPAs were, or how many Black admittees had higher scores than the median Black admittee.
The article clearly isn’t designed to present the reader with an informed view of the UM admissions process; it is designed to persuade us that there is something wrong. Why not tell us everything that goes into determining an admittee’s qualifications. How much do test scores and GPAs count? How much does age and life experience count? Military service/veteran’s preference? High school extracurriculars? Community service?
Nate, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse. I told you earlier that the article is based on studies conducted by the Center for Equal Opportunity of UM’s undergrad, law, and medical schools, found in the right sidebar here: http://www.ceousa.org/. These studies contain more detailed information about how the studies were conducted, how many people of which race were included, etc. – Admin
On the “lowered standards” of affirmative action canard, I addressed that in a Sept, 1999 post on USENET
On the idea that Black student retention rates “shows Black students are well prepared,” I’ve mentioned a few times that the Urban League, in one of its “State of Black America” reports stated that Black students rely more on student grants and loans to attend college than do their white peers. I also stated that is the reason why retention rates differ. I also stated that there is a deliberate blurring of “did not finish” to mean “dropped out because they couldn’t handle the course work.” That linking is false.
Recently there was a newspaper article that discussed the retention rates of HBCUs in Maryland. The article suggested the schools are not performing well because they cannot keep students or that the students are not prepared to do the work.
Here is what I wrote in January, 2007 about retention rates:
Funding concerns of Black students is not just an HBCU issue.
On the work done by CEO.
The last time I went to their site, there was a piece discussing affirmative action at the University of Virginia. They stated Blacks were being let in with lower standards. The problem with the analysis was that Blacks at UVa had the statistically same graduation rates as whites. Further more, at the time, UVa had the highest graduation rates of Blacks of all major universities and colleges.
The also wrote about affirmative action at Bowie State University in Maryland. For those who don’t know, Bowie is an HBCU. They claimed Black students were let in with lower grades than whites. The trouble with their analysis was they didn’t separate the “day program” from the “evening program.”
The day program is mostly Black. The evening program is mostly white and offers slightly different programs.
Lastly, the reports I read stated early on that correlation is not causation with respect to grades and “did not finish.” However, after stating that early on, they proceeded to ignore what they wrote concerning correlation and causation.
Angel, I was merely talking about myself. Why oh why do people twist things like that? I knew I should have put the laughing emote next to my reply.
I speak only for myself Angel. You asked about ME personally and that’s exactly how I answered you. Don’t blame me if you don’t like the answer…
To Nate:
As an instructor at the U of M, I met these black students face to face. Time and time, without exception, I encountered an enormous gap between these black students and their white/Asian counterparts. In many ways, I hated it for those students. Though some were willing to learn, they were unprepared for my course, and I could not catch them up in one semester.
And much as Ben suggested, their failings further perpetuated stereotypes about underachieving blacks.
Greg,
I can’t see you or your body language from what you post. I also don’t recall asking about you as much as stating that if you wanted to get scholarship funds you could as easily get them as I could.
#41 Uncle Ruckus tells me: “To validate what you claim you must address grade inflation. Also, please address as your “over their head black students†with other special admission students. In addition are you aware there is one elite American university that has 42% development and legacy admissions. Can you guess which one.”
Whew!
There is grade inflation all over the ball park in most colleges and universities. No argument. (I don’t know why this was tossed at me, however.)
The students I work with are blacks (only blacks) who are in over their heads. I can not ameliorate the fact of that statement. The university also has students who require help with English as a second language and the occasional athlete, although the university requires its athletes to meet standard entrance requirements.
I can not get anyone to pin down this “legacy” business. I can not guess what “elite American university that has 42% development and legacy admissions.” I also do not know what “development” admission means. What university is it and where does this statistic originate?
The university I work with has lots and lots and lots of fully qualified and extremely capable black students who go on to law school, medical school, engineering and graduate business school and come out on top among the best of students.
We also have a fair number of black students that have real academic difficulties and the university goes to great lengths to support them and keep them going. It is my assessment that most of them (black students with real academic difficulties) are “in over their heads.” It is my job to help them get a handle on their studies that will help them earn a diploma.
Recently, we have begun to develop programs for certain students “of Hispanic origin.”
I have been at this for a lot of years. I started in education in 1964 and I have encountered a lot along the way. I say this because I fear that you may think I am some greenhorn popinjay. (I am fairly well known in education circles and it is unusual to me that someone would think I am a fraud.)
When I was in the classroom, it was part of a student’s record to know their various scores. I have sat on admissions committees and am familiar with their general workings, as well as federal law concerning admissions. I am regularly contacted to help “shepherd” students through the admissions process, although my university does not allow this and it would be the “kiss of death” for any applicant who pushed it. (Do you have any idea how many people try to buy admissions?)
The university I work with has a SAT admission standard for black students that is several hundred points below its norm. I guess that answers your last point.
I have found that the black achievers do their best to distance themselves for the Affirmative Action blacks who do not have good success. Black achievers have the dual burden of being high achievers and separating themselves from the notion that they are being given a gift rather than being gifted.
I really don’t care to continue this explanation. If you are not satisfied with my answers or believe me to be a fraud, kindly keep it to yourself.
I would have respect for an argument that says some minority (and white for that matter) students don’t meet the qualitifications for admission to a ‘flagship’ university due to the fact that we have a screwed up k-12 educational system. However, there are some fine second-tier universities that these students might benefit from attending. -Tiffany
I totally agree with Tiffany and have often wondered why so many think that the solution seems to reside with fixing a problem in “grade thirteen” when so much of it originates in K-12. Also, I think it is a shame to put a student in a flagship university when that student will not have the greatest chance at success, whether they are legacy admits or AA beneficiaries.
As far as AA is concerned, I have always thought that AA “at its best” would expand outreach to traditionally underserved populations and promote programs to get kids “up to snuff” rather than simply lowering the bar. At the same time, I would like to see outreach that is based upon socio-economic factors rather than race alone as I think it would promote a more cohesive America while still reaching out to those who need a hand.
I have found that the black achievers do their best to distance themselves for the Affirmative Action blacks who do not have good success.
Exactly how do the “high achievers” know the “affirmative action” Blacks?
Are the “affirmative action” whites those whites who don’t do well in school?
What about the students who have the grades and scores to do well, but don’t because of the “freedom” they have obtained?
The huge disparity between the per cent of blacks who graduate from college and blacks who get into graduate programs is instructive.
It’s instructive only if you look at costs involved, economic status of the students and parents, and the debt load of the Black students who have graduated from undergrad vs other students who have graduated from undergrad.
It’s also instructive to note that most Blacks with advanced degrees, went to HBCU for undergrad studies.
#52 Darkstar:
1.) Very bright students almost always know who their academic equals are and who is not. This is especially true in the sciences, math, language, etc. It may not be so obvious in the “talk a good game” venue of courses.
However, many advanced level liberal arts courses are too tough for the weaker students.
I am a bit mystified here. It is not hard for a smart student to know when he is dealing with someone who isn’t up to the level of play. But, one of the problems I encounter is the student who believes he is doing a lot better then he is. I sometimes wish it boiled down to making hoops, because there few excuses in that game. I repeat, the students who are doing a lot better have no problem recognizing the weaker student.
2) Standards for admission to graduate school is not even close to standards for admission to the undergraduate institution.
One of the dirty little secrets of how universities measure their graduation rates is that they may extend the term for graduation to six or seven years. Many of the students I work with take at least six years to get the four years completed. Their undergraduate records almost deny them entrance to most graduate programs. When you check university stats, be certain to look at whether they have stretched the time frame to boost their numbers. (If 87% graduate within six years, how many would have graduated within four? Those numbers are rarely available unless you specifically ask for them.)
I hasten to add that there are some students who take the special help and also mature a bit during the six years and are a moderately good bet for trying a graduate degree.
So far as the cost factor of grad school is involved, I can find money for a qualified black student a lot quicker than I can find it for most white students.
Angel,
I’m all too familiar with the limitations of the Internet to get bent out of shape when a post runs into them. No harm no foul! I don’t know about that. For every scholarship I was eligible for there were three I wasn’t due to race and/or sex. Now I’m not irritated about that one bit. I’m studying to become a teacher so I’m all for a good education and if minority students are smart enough to mine the scholarships for money, more power to them.
No biggie!
PS be glad you can’t see me in person, I can scare a troll into fits… Despite what my wife thinks, she’s a bit biased!
#33 Uncle Ruckus,
Your initial statement on this thread seemed to indicate that you thought the standards for colleges were meaningless. In your reply, you seem to have missed my point entirely. Take two candidates for a job: one can set up the network, one can’t. You go with the first one. Suppose you need another NA and have two other people to choose from: candidate A does not know how to subnet the IP (that’s dividing an IP address among equipment in a network), but possesses the underlying skills that allow you to train her (she can do basic algebra). Candidate B not only cannot subnet, but is lacking in the underlying skills that would enable you to train her (she can’t even do elementary math). Candidate A is getting the job. So, if the company says you need basic algebra to do the job, that standard is not meaningless; it signals what knowledge and skills you need to have before it’s worth their time to train you.
When a school says you need this or that score on your SAT or ACT, it’s because that score represents the background knowledge you need to be educated there. Someone with poor verbal scores will also be someone whose composition papers are riddled with illiterate spelling errors, fractured syntax, and poor grammar in general. If the school expects its English 101 students to be able to turn in 15 page essays analyzing this or that, they are not going to take the time to explain what a sentence is, or what a paragraph is, or even the classical essay format, nor will they stop and define simple vocabulary. If you have to ask about those things, you will be unprepared when you have to do simple in-class essays, let alone the longer more extensive essays.
That’s what those scores are about. That’s why it matters when schools like U of M purposely lower their standards for black kids: they are setting them up for failure.
As for grade inflation, this is a big duh. Colleges are well aware of it, that’s why they want the SATs/ACTs. A person with a 3.9 GPA but a low ACT is obviously someone with an inflated grade. Professors and other students are well aware of the phenomenon of the straight A high school student who requires remedial instruction in basic subjects when she gets to college. The charitable ones think it’s a shame.
Other students, though, might resent having to waste class time–which they’re paying for, mind you–going over the basics for someone who shouldn’t even be there to begin with.
Whenever a professor wants to pair up students or have them work in groups, you can be sure the unqualified students are not the ones the others want to work with because at that point the qualified student stuck with the unqualified student has to carry the weight of the latter. The first student does not benefit from this arrangement at all, and comes to resent the latter student. The latter student will be able to see that the first student is the “brains of the operation†and could likely feel lost and uncomfortable.
The bloody obvious point that Ben made is that lowering standards for a given race means students are going to be running into unqualified students of that race more often, and may well form negative opinions, which will be all the worse for their being fact-based.
So, the tests are useful, because they tell the student what he really knows and if he really had an education in K-12 or not. If a student sees a discrepancy between his grade and his test score, then he now has a clue about what his grade is really worth, and can address the matter.
If there are many qualified blacks why is there the need for affirmative action? that does not make sense. I’m missing something I’m sure.
Is AA still a tremendous idea when Asians and Latinos beat out blacks for school spots and jobs? Why does a middle-class black person get a break but an Appalachian kid have to suck it up?
Good point LaShawn, that the difference among racial, legacy, and athletic scholarships is the stereotypes. I still think Ted Kennedy is an example of affirmative action for white people seeing as how he got kicked out of Harvard a couple of times.
My wife resents it very much when people think she is an affirmative action beneficiary. She works hard and is intelligent but has to put up with the notion that she got where she is by the kindness of nice white people who feel sorry for her.
I bet if you said, “Hey Tavis Smiley, tell us about how you got this job through affirmative action!” – he might correct you quick.
Ever notice that a lot of people love AA but won’t admit to having benefitted from it? BTW- i DON’T want an AA surgeon, CPA, or lawyer thanks.
Affirmative Action is a form of government hand out. Entitlement programs are almost impossible to shut down.
When many liberals defend Affirmative Action so staunchly, they are also covering up a nasty problem.
We have a lot of black kids who are not doing well in schools all across the nation. Head Start has been in play for since the 1960’s. It has had some positive impact, but it has not closed the education gap.
When you compare the races for social pathologies, the problems fall disproportionately high among blacks. This undoubtedly feeds racial stereotyping and reinforces a certain sense of inferiority or even hopelessness.
If Affirmative Action were to be ended, there would be a fairly large hole created by the absence of those who were brought into the game by giving them points for skin color.
There are studies that involve attempting to assess the positive impact of having given the Affirmative Action recipient access to an otherwise closed door. These studies are inconclusive and fairly vague.
I believe in the power of the market place. I can accept the temporary turmoil of ending Affirmative Action, because I believe that a vast series of individual choices will create a far better and more productive society as a result.
For black males who really struggled in high school, I have found over and again that time in the military worked miracles for the overwhelming majority of them. (For whites too, but this is about Affirmative Action.)
When you take the kid out of the neighborhood and give him a structured life and a set a goals, you very often find a new person emerging.
The university work goes a lot better for a student with some age and discipline behind him.
However, there are a lot of kids who struggle with passing the ASVAB. (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery.) That is a problem to be solved, because there are fewer and fewer jobs out there for such limited minds. And we do need to be realistic about stunted and malnourished brains.
What I have learned from Heliotrope here is that low test scores equal the inability to learn and work hard. Also, that being over ones head in school work is a recipe for failure. Who also only lists the failure of the black students they work with. If you can only cite failures in your career field I would suggest you seek a new career. Sometimes it is the leader not the followers.
As for hiring the best qualified candidate in a computer related career field. If the standard one is to use is IP subnetting (that is why they make subnet calculators) it is a flawed standard. With the rapid change in the computer industry the proper test is to test ones problem solving skills , ability to comprehend and apply that knowledge quickly.
For the record I am against AA. But I also know you can not measure a persons ability to succeed in a college based purely on high school grades and test scores.
Michael,
The way is was supposed to work was to allow equal access. We have this obsession with the idea that test score are the ultimate indication of probability of success. There are other factors. There are many qualified blacks out there. But, there weren’t even getting in the door let alone getting in.
I’m anti-AA because it creates too many myths about us atop the persistent stereotypes. People deny benefitting from AA because they know what whites believe about them. They are judged inferior. AA also gives folks cover to advance their ideas of racial inferiority. If AA disappeared, that haven would also go away.
The idea that blacks are mentally deficient didn’t start with AA. It started with slavery.
Thanks, Uncle Ruckus, for the advice.
I am “retired” so I don’t need to change careers. Affirmative Action is about black people, hence the concentration on black people. A fairly obvious point.
I am asked by a university to work with black students there who are having academic problems. (I get a stipend.) Through hard work and determination I have helped a lot of black students (now over 200) make it to graduation. I am not alone in this endeavor, but all of us in the program pretty much see things the same way. Together, we have helped a lot of black kids graduate.
Your reading of my posts seems to be with a “jaundiced eye.” I can not do anything about that, but my suggestion to you is that you also jump in and mentor some kids. Watch Mary Poppins first, because most failing kids already have a full dose of vinegar and rage.
There are mentally dull kids who simply can not cut it. If you do not believe that, then we are coming from two different planets.
#61 Angel notes: “The idea that blacks are mentally deficient didn’t start with AA. It started with slavery.”
Doubtlessly there are some hardheads who believe that “blacks are mentally deficient.” They probably have some nasty beliefs about Jews, as well.
But let’s not kid ourselves about either test scores or the ravages on the development of the brain caused by poor pre-natal care and poor early nutrition. Nor should we overlook that two weak minds are most likely to produce offspring with dull minds.
The fact is that IQ measures are darn good indicators of the level at which a person will succeed in cognitive tasks. There are many other good benchmark methods for assessing skills.
The fact is that when a brain is not properly nourished, the development loss can not be overcome.
If a subset of people has a high incidence of not doing well in the academic world, then one must include an examination of the lineage and environment in which those people were raised.
It is a huge leap to say that the color of the skin has anything whatsoever to do with the issue. But this does not take genetics out of the picture.
When the Shenandoah National Park was being created, WPA studies showed that many of people from the “hollows” were borderline retarded. They were basically a closed society and their lack of fresh gene pools showed many of the same problems that befell the royal families of Europe.
There was a fertility doctor in Northern Virginia who was impregnating women with his own sperm. Now, this is a potential biological disaster if the products of his seed start intermarrying.
People don’t like to look at this problem, but it is a significant part of studies about social pathologies. If you find an area crawling with cousins, you have a good starting point for listing social pathologies.
Sorry, for the cold water, but dull minds are not just asleep and awaiting a wake up call.
Yes! I do know people who have done wonderful things with limited mental ability. But they are the exception, not the rule.
Go Helio!!! Your number one fan…
As an educator are you not compelled to tout your victories just as much as the students who fail. In all you post you only focused on the negatives. I guess when people choose to inspire and educate future leaders of tomorrow I would hope you would gain more pride in your successes. Just one question what is the graduation rate of the school where you work compared to your percentages of success?
Helio, care to discuss what I presented concerning “did not finish” stats and how it is morphed to “drop out”?
#60 Uncle Ruckus, let’s try this again. The question is, “Does the test score reflect anything important? Does it reflect the necessary background knowledge to succeed at the school?” WRT the job, forget relying on calculators. If you do not know how to add, subtract, multiply, etc., you will be ill equipped to use a calculator of any kind.
Even for the subnet calculator you still need some underlying knowledge of math. Calculators are of no use to people who don’t know math. That’s what I’m getting at when I speak of background knowledge, particularly as related to test scores. You’re looking at a tree and I’m talking about a forest. Problem solving and critical thinking are a lot more efficient when the problem solver has some background knowledge to draw on. There’s a reason people don’t go to the Amish for tech support.
You seemed dismissive of the need for having underlying knowledge, which is a huge problem in education today, and is a big part of why kids sail though school unprepared for the next level and the level after that. Tests such as the SATs show background knowledge, and having the background knowledge matters. Students lacking it fall behind. Maybe they can catch up, but they are ill-served being thrown into an environment they are not prepared to succeed in. That’s why, once again, U of M et al are wrong to do that to black kids.
Now, if you’re going to imagine that the scores are meaningless, you can go right ahead, but just based on my own experience, they measure what they set out to. A friend with poor English (she was from Viet Nam) failed the composition part of the ACT, as well she should. Can she learn English? Obviously. But if she was placed into a class requiring extensive understanding of English, she will fail. If she wanted a job that required her to understand the nuances of different word choices, the way a lawyer could for example, she would not be eligible for that job.
IANAL, but I once advised a boss on what wording he should use in a letter when his company was threatened with a lawsuit. I saved him $30K, for he would have otherwise been on the hook for. I could “apply knowledge†and “problem solve†because I know my way around words well enough to help craft a response. My friend could not have done that.
Most jobs I’ve had require excellent English proficiency, and I have no fear of being replaced by someone with her proficiency level. It makes no difference if she can think “apply knowledge” because in this instance she doesn’t have knowledge, nor can she “problem solve” about how to word letters, because again, she lacks proficiency in English, so my job is barred to her. She couldn’t even be trained to do my job(s) without that proficiency–and the key here is that this detail was also reflected in her ACT score. You would be right to question the validity of the test if someone like her was able to score highly on the composition sections.
I never took any trigonometry classes; I never succeed at any test requiring me to know trig, nor would I succeed at any subject where trig was a prerequisite. If a college noted that understanding trigonometry corresponded with a given range of scores, they would be right to ask for those scores, and right to exclude those who didn’t achieve the proper score, as well as wrong to admit those who didn’t achieve them. Professions relying on using trig are closed to me, as well they should be.
Uh, Uncle Ruckus @65… didn’t Helio answer your question in a previous post @62? Give the man a break! I think what he’s accomplished is positive and commendable, but does anyone give him credit for that? He has personal experience dealing with students, so I would say that he’s entitled to his opinion.
#65 Uncle Ruckus asks me: “Just one question what is the graduation rate of the school where you work compared to your percentages of success?”
I do not understand your question. Perhaps you are asking how many students I help who choose to drop out or transfer. I am reluctant to guess a number, but I suspect we get something around a fourth to a third of our charges through.
Some who drop out have reasons that are not entirely because of academics. I do not keep up with the progress of students who transfer. Many of the students I work with find other colleges or universities with programs in which they will have more success.
Colleges and universities come in various levels of difficulty. The university I serve is in the top tier of institutions.
I really do not quite grasp the irritation you have with what I have written.
I am extremely proud of my successes and I have received a lot of recognition for my work throughout my career.
One of my successes includes helping a girl go to college. To do that, we had to get her four year old sister away from her drug addicted, prostitute mother. The student was the care giver to her little sister and could not see a future for herself. I was able to send the girl to college with her sister. (It involved getting court orders and foster care and raising financial support.)
Last year, I attended the graduation of the little sister from a fine college.
Does that qualify for something positive?
#66 DarkStar asks: “Helio, care to discuss what I presented concerning “did not finish†stats and how it is morphed to ‘drop out’?”
Can you direct me to the “did not finish” stats you presented? I do not seem to find them above.
Most universities I know try to paper over their “did not finish” statistics.
Understand, I spent my career in the high school classroom. I use the term “drop out” because that is the terminology at that level of schooling.
Perhaps “did not finish” is a softer euphemism.
Helio;
APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE, APPLAUSE!!! Your accomplishments are commendable! You have probably done more for society than all of us put together. It’s obvious to me you’re a very positive, loving, and caring man. Don’t let all the negativity get you down…
Tate,
I commend Helio, but let’s not go overboard. Unless you know something about me and everyone else on this board, I think we all measure up in regards to contributing to society.
Angel and Tate,
Everyone can be a positive force for change without ever really knowing the outcome.
I have had students I worked very hard with who years later can’t remember if I was their teacher or not!
Recently, a former student told me that he has always remembered my telling him that “their” and “there” both begin with “the.” How about that for a tombstone?
You never know when a little attention and encouragement makes a major difference. And the best part is that it is free.
My only beef in life is with professional critics. Chump work.
Helio,
Drop out applies equally to colleges. I am a living example of dropping out. Of course I keep trying, this time I might actually finish school. Message to all you youngsters (anyone under 30) out there… Do college before you get married and have kids, it’s much much easier that way…
Angel, there you go again… Assuming that someone is talking about you. Why do you do that? Why do you take something positive I said to Helio and turn it into an attack on you? I think you just like to start fights… Is that it? And you’re right, I know nothing about you. Don’t wanna know either, as you seem to have a very bad attitude.
Let’s refresh: My statement was (and please pay special attention to these words): ” You have probably done more for society than all of us put together.” It was a personal compliment to Helio. My choice was to go overboard, as I think his accomplishments are outstanding and abnormal. So if you want to take what I said to Helio as a personal attack on you, go right ahead. Good grief!!
Helio,
Just curious, you gave an estimate of how many kids that you have helped. Was it exclusively black kids and if not, did the other kids have the same educational issues, economic background, and developmental problems as the black kids, or were they just plain unmotivated and lazy?
I was tracked to a hs that offered intensive SAT preparatory classes, so I dunno ,maybe my natural talent was augmented a little by extra preparation.( Which in turn led me to purchase an SAT practice book a full year before I took the test, cause some of the questions were real hard!
Anyway,I ask because a lot of the “gifted” white students at the campus I attend party to the point of flunking classes on the regular.(Which then prompts them to pay for a tutor to get themselves back on track)This is not excellence,this is working the system.
Helio, at least the people you tutored were smart enough to get help and wanted to do their work themselves without assuming that they could just gloss over their under achievement by paying someone else to do their work, or joining a “study” group to steal/mimic the genius of others . You are correct in saying some that pay for help may have the wherewithal to do the work. But just for the record, the top 10%is just that, and after that we still have to count the whites and asians ( and everyone else)who just didn’t make the cut. Nowhere do I find any #s about the matrix of the performance of the average white students, just the minority ones.
Now, maybe its just me, but why are these people more deserving than others? I think failure is equal opportunity and for every AA story I hear about folks getting in over their heads, I long for folks to admit that there are some with the world at their feet and STILL manage to muck it up. Or those who are just appear to be “qualified” because of class or race. Some of these folks are not deserving or qualified because they are too busy advancing their social lives, not taking their education seriously,partying nonstop, or because of some sense of privilege and entitlement. For instance, look at some frat fool who will gladly settle for a C average just because he can’t get up in the morning to go to class,after binging until 4a.m. I run into alot of educated fools that have frittered away opportunities to attain excellence because they can pay to achieve success. Mark, is this person preferable to your AA lawyer? I certainly hope not because he didn’t learn anything either!
Helio,
I also have to respectfully disagree with your statement:
“Affirmative Action is about black people, hence the concentration on black people. A fairly obvious point.”
The purpose of affirmative action is to give our nation a way to finally address the systemic exclusion of individuals of talent on the basis of their gender, or race from opportunities to develop, perform, achieve and contribute.
Affirmative action is an effort to develop systematic approach to open the doors of education, employment, and business development opportunities tohttp://www.affirmativeaction.org/about.jsp
Just for the record, I am not an advocate but I know you cannot mean that this is all about black people. It is about all so called disenfranchised groups, which we know also includes asians and all women. Some of the gifted folks you speak of have benefited,knowing full well that they were denying someone else.
‘Whoops, sorry Mark, I meant Michael.
#76 Reshane,
Bless you, you have your head on straight.
I am asked by the university to work with black students. Therefore, it is black students I mentor.
You are so completely right about white kids (not exclusive to the race) who waste their days away. (If their parents were in a taxi clipping off $58 per mile, they would do something about it!)
The students I work with are sometimes sent to me with a chip on their shoulders. But, I have a pretty good support team from past students who help them wake up and smell the coffee.
Some of the kids are really in a strange land in terms of where they started out. My trick is to bring them home to dinner, walk them around the neighborhood and let them get a feel for what is out there for them. I also make sure their professors really get to know who they are and take time to stop and say hello. We all like to feel we are somebody.
White students not only drop out, they crash and burn. Unfortunately for black students, everyone is desperate that they succeed, so in many respects, they are not allowed to grow from failing. I don’t mean to be confusing here, but the university is going to be judged by how well it does with black students, not other groups.
The truth is that if a student goes to a good junior college for two years and then transfers to the university, his chances for graduating on time with a solid record is much greater than entering the university as a freshman. The first two years are the roughest and that is where the damage is the greatest….. regardless of race.
You note: “Helio, I also have to respectfully disagree with your statement: ‘Affirmative Action is about black people, hence the concentration on black people. A fairly obvious point.’”
I don’t like that statement either. But I was being accused of concentrating on AA students who are failing. Well, that is my job, so I didn’t know how else to answer the criticism.
I oppose continuing Affirmative Action. But I am not opposed to being an advocate for individuals who show potential.
You say: ” I long for folks to admit that there are some with the world at their feet and STILL manage to muck it up.”
Reshane, there are more BMW driving hot shots with no business sucking up valuable oxygen on every campus than anyone can count. I am entirely with you on this point. But they are not your problem, nor are they mine. Ogden Nash wrote this poem: “God in his wisdom made the fly; Then forgot to tell us why.” Just consider these people one of God’s flies.
I guess I will fight you on the concept that all women are disenfranchised. In my 40+ years of marriage I have learned the power of the words “yes dear,” and “you’re right dear.” I know that men dominate in most fields and that history turns up relatively few women leaders. But women rarely do stupid things for men, but you can absolutely count on men doing stupid things for women. Who is really in charge? It is no mystery to me.
Forty years of Affirmative Action is two generations. That is a lot of development time. Your children should certainly be free of the stigma of Affirmative Action. When they go to college, everyone should accept them on their own merits. If they drink themselves stupid and flunk out, so be it.
I am not sure how you pay to achieve success. Ultimately, if you tie into a tutor, you still have to do the work.
I meet some professors who think I am “whoring” for failing students. If anything I can do helps a student along with understanding his obligations, I am delighted to do it: even if I have to sit through a few abusive screaming sessions.
Hopefully, this answers most of your questions. Just remember, the face you see in the mirror is a champion. It is not the reflection of anything else, unless you really don’t believe in yourself.
This may be a hand grenade tossed into the camp-fire but…..: Don’t huddle up with your comfort group for support. The life beyond college is based on what you can do and your attitude. I can’t guarantee smooth sailing, but you have only one reputation and it is your strongest asset. Make the name Reshane stand for quality, integrity and dependability.
Some who drop out have reasons that are not entirely because of academics. I do not keep up with the progress of students who transfer.
And that is ONE of the problems with the stats used concerning affirmative action and Black students who “do not finish” within 4 years.
Those who truly drop out are treated the same as those who transfer. Those who truly drop out are treated the same as those who leave because of lack of money. Those who truly drop out are treated as those who go part time because of financial reasons.
Perhaps “did not finish†is a softer euphemism.
It’s a “euphemism” used by anti-affirmative action types to bolster the case of Blacks not being qualified. It doesn’t matter if “did not finish” or “drop out” is used because even “drop out” is not accurate for the reasons stated above.
I graduated in 4 years. A friend graduated in 7 because of financial issues. A cousin graduated in 9 because she kept changing majors. My daughter, even though her SAT scores and high school grades exceeded the average scores for the university she attended, will likely graduate in 6 or 7 years because her first year she couldn’t handle the freedom. :/
#79 DarkStar: Time Out!
1.) Most universities I know keep the admission rolls open for a number of years. If you let five years lapse, your record is closed. I think you have not been entirely accurate with your assumptions.
2.) Those who leave because they lack money have some other problem that keeps them from taking work grants or hardship grants. Let’s be honest here.
3.) Your daughter is hardly the rare case.
4.) I wish your daughter much success.
Thanks Helio for your response.
The pay for a tutor point is well taken, especially in the offline world. But online, ummm…
Well, just make sure your kids don’t ever see
http://www.brainmass.com
Sure it looks like an ahem, hw help site but,
for a mere $1.99 you can have quick answers and term papers. ( One of the cheaper alternatives to work some that some of my classmates stand by)
Reshane,
I have a dirty trick up my sleeve. When I get a really good paper, I wait a few days and then I time my student as he writes a precis of the paper. Sometimes the results are not pretty! Then we have have Come to Jesus meeting and start all over again!
Thanks for thought!
1.) Most universities I know keep the admission rolls open for a number of years. If you let five years lapse, your record is closed. I think you have not been entirely accurate with your assumptions.
Currently, the major universities give you 6 years to complete your degree program if you go full time. The time frame changes if you go part-time. But, again, for anti-affirmative action studies, a Black person starting year one full-time, then going part time in year two and taking more time to finish, would be counted as a person who was unable to complete the course work in 4-6 years and thus, unqualified to be in the school.
2.) Those who leave because they lack money have some other problem that keeps them from taking work grants or hardship grants. Let’s be honest here.
Interesting quote:
4.) I wish your daughter much success.
She’s kicking butt right now. But she’s also paying for some of her schooling as well.
There is a lot of data at the link provided.
Remember that 69%?
Now remember what I wrote in 46:
Helio
2.) Those who leave because they lack money have some other problem that keeps them from taking work grants or hardship grants. Let’s be honest here.
You are aware due to the trend of outsourcing the wages a current college graduate have been push down to keep them in debt many years in the future.
This is the prime result of developmental admissions
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-10-19-wal-mart-heiress_x.htm
Also my favorite place for resources to tutor students from is here http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html
#86 Uncle Ruckus decides:”Those who leave because they lack money have some other problem that keeps them from taking work grants or hardship grants. Let’s be honest here.”
You are stating this as a fact.
If 1000 students leave, I suspect they leave for 1,211 different reasons.
Now how many of those reasons are conditional on skin color, I have no idea. My guess is darn few.
There seems to be a great deal of sensitivity here about people who leave. People make a lot of smart or dumb change decisions throughout their lives. They change jobs, get divorced, quit drugs, go back to college, open a business, sit around the park, etc.
Sorry, I can not claim that statment, that is something you posted check #80. Helio, you seem to imply that GPA and test scores is the best measuring stick for success. Also, if a person does not graduate in four years they have somehow failed another point that can be implied from your posts. You never seen to address other factors only your GPA and test scores is the only measure of a students potential. That is seriously flawed logic not based in reality or fact. There is no formula for success in any endeavor the only common component is hard work. Just because a student may seem under prepared does not mean they do not have the ability to excel.
Uncle Ruckus,
Sorry, I thought you wanted a further explanation of what I meant. I see I wrote “Uncle Ruckus decides:….” I intended that to be “Uncle Ruckus decides this needs clarification:….”
Bad omission on my part and I am glad you caught it.
Outcome based education and the search for other ways to assess success or potential has been around for the 40 years I have been in education. It has gone nowhere.
When I read a reference that tells me someone has/shows “a lot of potential” I always think of how someone on an admissions committee defined that term: “ain’t done s**t.”
Heliotrope…
Potential… I hate that word with a passion.
In general, if you’re luck enough to have the
¢£¥$ to go to school full time then you should be able to graduate in 4 years. If like my brother in law you have to work part time to go to college then it’s going to take longer, especially if the student wants to get more than just C’s and the occasional B. That just for something like business or education or nursing. Other degrees add longer to that time.
So Helio as an educator you have never utter or thought “with a little practice and proper guidance this kid will be tremendous at doing this”. How about this one “are you sure you have not done this before?”
As for your ““ain’t done s**t†comment you should read the mission statement of every school in the world.
#92 Uncle Ruckus says: “So Helio as an educator you have never utter or thought “with a little practice and proper guidance this kid will be tremendous at doing thisâ€.
Do you actually read what I post? When the university asks me to help a sinking black student, am I not assuming that with a little practice and proper guidance this kid……will get back on the track? (The “will be tremendous at doing this” is too much of a qualifier for a student with basic skills problems.)
All high school teachers assess their students and recommend them for a more challenging route when it is probable that the student can handle it. (I have sent kids to the university for part of the day because the high school couldn’t challenge them properly.)
Is your animus for me so great that you see me as some sort of poisonous Cretan? I liked it better when you called me a fraud.
Perhaps you could help us all by setting down your version of a mission statement for Affirmative Action students.
Shall I advise the university to put the help program for AA students who are having academic problems on hold until we hear from you and can review your recommendations?
I am not going to hold my breath. That is not an insult. I just want you to know that I am going to blunder ahead.
As for potential and the mission statement of every school in the world: if potential is not tied to performance, then it is amorphous.
I have never played golf. Not once. But potentially, I am better than Tiger. You can bet on it.
Helio,
Are those students already in remedial classes to start with like I was in math? (Trust me I was in double bone-head pre-algebra)Or did they get into English 101 etc and then struggle?
I guess a student should arrive to college having reach his or her potential not have an educator help that student reach their potential.
No comments on the financial information about Blacks?
94. Greg,
I hate to say this, but for the most part the university uses its standard study groups, pairings, etc. for students who are having trouble in the remedial programs. (I do work with students who went through remedial classes, however.)
They ask me and my cohorts to come in after the students have shown some success, but just haven’t clicked yet.
I know that is vague, but I show up when called. I really don’t have a hand in how the student is selected. I know there are recommendations from student mentors, professors and others, including the students themselves. Most of the students I get have made it through several semesters, but their GPA is suffering and they need some serious help.
If you were in a double bone-head math class, you might have found my initials carved on the desk.
Helio, I’ll bet you never, in your wildest dreams, would have thought you could be criticized for helping kids get ahead.
RedBeard,
You got that right. Rather than try to explain myself and discover that I am singing in my hat while shuffling off to Buffalo, I will just say: I Don’t know why………..she swallowed that fly………..perhaps she’ll be saved by her potential.
The timer is ringing and the wet noodle is ready so I have go and beat myself forcibly about the head and shoulders.
Helio;
What’s the matter with you? I thought you were superhuman? You should be able to overcome all obstacles and help these students reach their potential, even if they have a 60 IQ. How dare you not try harder!! [Sarcasm off]
Posts 99-100 does more than prove the point I was making.
Ruckus,
Can you expand on that? I got lost after that left turn…
I think that was more than a left turn. I need GPS to find out where we are now.
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