Thursday, April 12 @ 3:56 p.m.: Rogue prosecutor Mike Nifong says HE’S SORRY. Exact wording: “To the extent that I made judgments that ultimately proved to be incorrect, I apologize to the three students that were wrongly accused.” (Source)
[Grammar pet peeve alert: "I apologize to the three students who were wrongly accused," not "that were wrongly accused." You're referring to people, man, not mere things. Generally, use who when referring to people and that when referring to objects.]
That’s a lawyer’s apology, alright. It should read:
“I apologize to the three students for race- and class-baiting their fellow students and for playing with their lives to win an election, knowing I had no evidence against them. I’m finished as Durham DA, and I deserve to lose my law license. I humble myself before you and hope you can find it within yourselves to forgive me.”
Thursday, April 12 @ early morning: It’s nice to be acknowledged by writers like Michael Barone (met him last year at CPAC). I haven’t done nearly as much as bloggers like KC Johnson (pre-order his book, Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustices of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case) but I’m glad I did something. Instead of writing more about the case on the blog, I’ll put my commentary and research into a couple of op-eds I’m working on.
In the meantime, satiate your need for more Duke news at Google News. The former players will appear on “60 Minutes” this Sunday.
Triangle-area blogger Jon Ham has press conference photos and PDF copies of the dismissal orders.
Later…Tammy Bruce at 12:30 p.m. EDT.
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*** 2:36 p.m. EDT — NC AG Roy Cooper calls former players “innocent.” Drops all charges and says, “no more criminal proceedings will occur.” Scroll down for live-blogging and updates ***
Collin Finnerty, Reade Seligmann, and David Evans are no longer facing sexual offense and kidnapping charges. ABC News is reporting that North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper will announce today that he’s dropping all charges in a case that shouldn’t have existed in the first place. Is ABC News reliable? I believe it. It will be official once Cooper makes the announcement at a press conference today. The former players and their families have traveled to Raleigh for the announcement. More here.
For over a year, these three men lived under suspicion of heinous crimes. Lost time, scarred reputations, millions of dollars in legal fees…
I hope the stripper-accuser, the now-named stripper who lied/cried rape, pays (legally) for what she’s done. And gets some help. She’s pictured at the far right. Date, March 16, 2006, three days after she supposedly was brutally beaten, strangled, raped, and sodomized by Seligmann — who wasn’t even in the house during her fantasy sequence — Finnerty, and Evans. Last December Durham County DA Mike Nifong, who’s fighting for his career, dropped forcible rape charges against the men because the stripper-accuser couldn’t remember whether she was raped. What a farce this whole mess was.
I started blogging the case about a month after the night in question (April 2006), and I’ve written 44 posts and two op-eds worth of public comments on the stripper-accuser’s obviously-phony-from-the-beginning gang-rape fantasy. I’ll have much more to say later. While I get my thoughts together, check out the “Duke bloggers”:
Captain Ed says, “Next up: Disbarring Nifong.” I’ll drink to that! And thanks for acknowledging my early blogging of the case, Ed.
Update II (9:33 a.m.): FOX News is reporting that the AG’s office has reached a decision in the case and will announce it at 2:30 p.m. EDT today; defense’s press conference at 4 p.m. The Associated Press is also reporting all charges will be dropped.
Update II (2:06 p.m.): Although I seem to revel in it, I don’t enjoy blogging about this case. I used to love the stuff — chasing breaking news and scandals, getting trackbacks, comments, and big blogger links — but I don’t anymore. How I feel about this post proves what I’ve been thinking and occasionally blogging lately. As a rule, I don’t delete posts (though there have been one or two exceptions), so I’ll let this one stand. This likely will be my last “Duke case” post. I will “live-blog” the 2:30 news conference.
I made a judgment call to name the stripper. My conscience was bothering me, so I removed it. But as I said, I’ll let the post stand. I still believe she lied, and I still believe she has serious issues with gang-rape fantasies. I hope the stripper-accuser faces the legal consequences of her actions and gets the help I think she needs. I pray that this will be a turning point for her and that she seeks forgiveness from the people she wronged and from God.
2:36 p.m.: The press conference has started. NC AG Roy Cooper is speaking. “We carefully reviewed the evidence…conducted our own interviews…reviewed statements, photos and other evidence…shows clearly there is insufficient evidence.”
“…the result is that these cases are over and no more criminal proceedings will occur…”
Based on significance of stripper-accuser’s inconsistent stories “we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges…”
Accuser’s “statements were so inconsistent,” the AG believes that no attack occurred at that house.
“No DNA confirms the accuser’s story. No witness statements confirm the accuser’s story…she contradicts herself.” The evidence Cooper’s office has contradicts her story.
Cooper gives a stinging indictment against Mike Nifong. Powerful statement. I’ll post the video as soon as it’s on YouTube. [Roy Cooper VIDEO at Hot Air]
Nifong has no hope of saving his career.
Cooper says his office has considered charging the stripper-accuser, but decided that it’s “in the best interest of justice” not to charge her. I suspect he’s alluding to her psychological problems. Hinted that she may believe all her wild stories. He mentioned sealed records.
FOX News names the stripper-accuser. I chose to remove her name from this post. I’m still watching FOX. Shep Smith is going to have a stroke if he doesn’t calm down. I’m just as indignant, but relax, man. You’ll live longer.
KC Johnson, of the wonderful Durham-in-Wonderland, is live-blogging from Raleigh.
3:53 p.m.: Lawyers for Seligmann, Finnerty, and Evans will hold a news conference at 4 p.m. EDT. Instead of trying to live-blog, I’ll just link to the statement and video afterward.
Joseph Cheshire, Evans’s attorney, is speaking for the players and their families, who will not take questions at the conference. He’s introducing the families and the attorneys. Reade Seligmann’s father and I communicated via e-mail, and it’s good to put a face to a name. Sighs of relief!
Evans is making a long, eloquent statement in defense of himself and his fellow former players. Says he, Seligmann, Finnerty, or any other lacrosse players ever put up a “blue wall of silence” or refused to speak to Nifong or the cops, contrary to Nifong’s assertions.
Evans is thanking his family for making the sacrifices necessary for him to have an excellent lawyer.
Finnerty just finished speaking, and Seligmann’s at the podium. The recurring theme in all the speeches is the love and support of family and sacrifices each member has made to support and stand by the accused. In order for that to happen, people need the social capital of strong, intact families. They help each other emotionally and financially through tragic, traumatic events like being falsely accused of a gang-rape. The connection between intact families, strong communities, and standing firm in the face of injustice may not seem apparent to some, but it’s quite obvious to me.
Broken homes and broken down communities leave children vulnerable, at risk for poverty, underachievement, and prison, and without social capital to help them through tough times in their lives.
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If there was ever a time for a multi-million dollar lawsuit it’s now. The group of 88, the university, the DA’s office and any media member who published these lies should EACH be sued for millions.
Cool. Just plain cool.
TaterCon
Prepare for your Instalanche!
The only thing I disagree with is the repeated use of the word “fantasy”. Call it what it was: a lie. It’s a common tactic used against actual victims to label their accusation a fantasy. I know this woman is not an actual victim, but as someone very involved in abuse issues, it doesn’t come off very well.
I call it a fantasy because she cried gang-rape by three men when she was fourteen. It’s a contrarian’s job to find something to disagree with, be it a quibble with a punctuation mark or usage of a single word. Good job! – Admin
La Shawn
I am sorry the case did not go to trial.
I was hoping Ms Mangum would be forced to testify – and revealing what an illiterate low life she is.
Now someone needs to prevent Precious and the other one from selling their “story” and profiting from this.
More than I am waiting for this announcement, I am waiting for the apology from the grand faculty at Duke University to those boys…. Yeah like that will ever happen
LaShawn,
You could easily call it a lie. Talk to any rape counselor and any sex-crimes prosecutor and they will tell you the use of the word “fantasy” is very common in the defense strategies and denials. Why do you call anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest a contrarian? The use of the word struck me in that light. A more accurate depiction of what happened was this woman LIED. A “fantasy” is something a person desires. There is a difference between the two.
Contrarian is a label I use not for people who disagree with me but for people who nitpick one word in a post just to have something to disagree with. And thanks for defining “fantasy” for us. I use the word precisely because of what it means and what I believe the stripper wants: a desire to be gang-raped by a group of men. I base this assertion on the fact that she has a history of falsely crying gang-rape. So, just to be ultra clear for the rest of the contrarians, the stripper is a gang-rape fantasizer AND a liar. Happy? Somehow, I don’t think you will be. – Admin
Wow. I would not be at all surprised to see a lawsuit come from these players.
And for once, i think a lawsuit is absolutely justified. Unbelievable.
I agree. She LIED! Period. End of story. To call it a fantasy is simply removing responsibility and it implies that in some way she really beleived it happened. The reality is that she knows it didn’t happen and she is quite aware that everything she has said from the very beginning was completely false. She is a LIAR and she needs to be held accountable.
Daaaaaannngg….
Will Jesse still pay for her college education? Oh, he’s too busy trying to shakedown the media monguls now because of what Don Imus said.
I do not know that these boys’ reputations are that scarred. I would hire them in a heart beat. Unfortunately they probably do not want to do my filing. Nobody sane took the charges seriously after the first week or two anyway.
What I’m unhappy about now is that it is clear that you are trying to call me something that I’m not. A contrarian is someone who calls the sky green when it’s blue. That’s not what I’m about. I really do consider it an insult. As far as being happy…I’m not. This is an incredible tragedy. What I hope this case as well as the Kobe Bryant case does is change the way we prosecute these case. I believe in Rape Shield laws, but I believe they should be amended to protect the accused as well until indictment by a grand jury.
I know this is “contrary” to the public’s right to know, but these types of cases have the potential to ruin the lives of the accused as well as the accuser. Shielding both sides would take away the temptation of future Nifong to use such a case in the future to trump up his racial solidarity bonafides before an election in a majority black district.
Again, thanks for defining another word for us. A contrarian is also someone who says the stripper is not a gang-rape fantasizer when I and her record say she is. As I said before, you are a contrarian, a nitpicking one at that. It’s your choice to be insulted by the truth. Since I’ve closed commenting on most of my blog, something I should have done long ago, I have to say that I don’t miss nitpicking contrarians at all, but this back and forth with you has been…fun.
You won’t get the last word, so I think you should take the high road and stop “arguing” with me over a word in a post you otherwise agree with. – Admin
Frank Zavisca #7.
Why did you call her illiterate?
# 1. Whether or not the woman has fantasies of being gang-raped is not something you or I know.
What is certain is that she lied about what happened in that house.
# 2. “Getting the last word” is not important to me. Being able to “say” something is.
# 3. I always take the high road because people make it really easy to do so.
Good! Since having the last word isn’t important to you and you ALWAYS take the high road because people [like me] make it so easy to do, let this comment be the last on this exchange. I’ll have the last word, while you take the high road and move on to something else. “I’ve always depended on the maturity of strangers…” – Admin
I love you, Fred, but we’re not going there on this post. I’ve got the words flagged for the spam filter. – Admin
Wow, this is my first time seeing a picture of the stripper. Yikes!
I hope that these unfairly accused young men can get some semblance of a normal life after this. The same goes for all individuals who are blatantly lied on. My heart truly goes out to them.
A big heaping of thanks also to LaShawn for being a part of the band of the few, the happy few, the band of brothers (and sisters) who helped from the first to try and expose this for what it was.
It would have been nice to have had help from CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, etc. But I guess they don’t understand the meaning of DNA evidence, the impossibility of being in two places at one time,
lie-detector tests, a DA who conspires to hide evidence, etc. (It took them more than a year to figure this out?)
So while the NET doesn’t have Peabody awards, I think it wouldn’t be wrong to start a “Zola” award (named after Emile Zola, author of “I Accuse!” in the Dreyfus case), and award one to LaShawn, for standing against the force of mob opinion in the cause of justice.
Angel should focus on the very good advice of a Law School Professor of yore on argument.
1) If you have tried your best and made your point, sit down and shut up.
2) If you have tried your best and not made your point, sit down and shut up.
Two things:
1. When are we going to see charges against the stripper who filed a false police report?
2. Ms. Barber is correct to use the word “fantasy” in this case. The whole concoction is a lie, yes, but I believe her point is that the woman keeps claiming to have been raped by multiple men, and perhaps she does so because this is a fantasy for her.
I would think the main difference between using the word fantasy and lie is that the former carries a connotation that the false accusation is based upon a mistaken belief of the accuser, while in the latter the false accusation is a result of intentionally fabricated testimony. I would say that the former is probably more commonly used in defense proceedings as it does not deny the pain and suffering of the accused but rather addresses the accuracy of the memories/testimony.
Without being a contrarian, I agree with Angel that in this case the latter seems more apropriate.
MC,
“…the woman keeps claiming to have been raped by multiple men, and perhaps she does so because this is a fantasy for her.”
Again, the major problem I have with this is is plays into the long-discredited theory that rape is a common fantasy of women. If someone falsely claims multiple times that a police officer beat him up, does that mean he fantasizes about being beat up by police officers? The logic doesn’t hold up. The only reason the word fantasy is being used is to further denigrate an obviously very sick individual who clearly has issues.
OK, here’s the final word. It’s strange that some on this board assume my use of the word “fantasy” negates or downplays that the stripper’s story was a LIE. How people reasonably come to that conclusion is a mystery only for nitpickers to rehash, but they’ll have to do it on someone else’s blog. I’m having the last word in this asinine discussion, and subsequent comments with the word “fantasy” in them will be cast into the ether. – Admin
If someone falsely claims multiple times that a police officer beat him up, does that mean he fantasizes about being beat up by police officers?
I would say yes. Most likely so he/she can collect on the lawsuit that would follow such an event.
Anyone think there will be a movie about this? Of course not. It doesn’t fit the Hollywood PC mold.
I am not sure whether that is a fantasy or an opinion, but I suspect I will find out.
Hee-hee!
La Shawn… I totally understand why you decided to ban commenting these past few weeks. Some people just won’t quit!
Well, illiterate low-lifes get raped too. Not that this lady did apparently. I am not concerned with her socio-economic status, but her behavior and choices were dreadful.
I hope that the gang of 88 at Duke as well as Sharpton and Jesse have to answer for their choices as well, Sharpton should be sued for defamation. He … has made racist, inflamatory statements that resulted in deaths. He belongs behind bars.
Trey
Although I totally agree with you about Sharpton, as a rule, I don’t allow commenters to call people the r-word, whether they are or not. It’s distracting, and I think it’s much more compelling to demonstrate that he is rather than calling him the r-word. – Admin
Any attorneys here? Is it possible to sue someone for falsely accusing you of such a heinous crime? I know she probably doesn’t have any money to go after, but she should spend a little time in jail thinking about what she did.
Hmmm, at what point are people going to start apoligizing to those young men and their families for the hell they went through? Anyone wanna take bets on the odds that the two pharisees Jackson and Sharpton are on their way down to NC to apoligize face to face for what they’ve done? How about the gang of 88?
Yea didn’t think so…
While I’m not a fan of lawsuits, I’ll make an exception this time…
Why shouldn’t the Group of 88 be required to appear before the accused and apologize for calling them well groomed, overly advantaged (and probably legacy) victimizers?
Jessie could be called in to make it all rhyme.
Jesse should pay for the three falsely accused college students.
She lied. This is what I talk about when I publish The Truth.
Now, I’m doing it! When did Crystal Magnum become a “lady”?
LaShawn,
Why are you always jumping down my throat? It’s a point of discussion like any other on any other board. Unless, of course, you have a f______ about me!
You caught me!
– Admin
It’s not important, batyah. It was part of a weird discussion that hopefully is over now. – Admin
Just for situations like this, I’d like to see a law opening prosecutors that conduct these kind of malicious or egregiously bad prosecutions up to criminal prosecution. (We’re not talking about cases where the prosecutors have good evidence but lose anyway, just about the really heinous cases that shouldn’t have been brought in the first place, or persist even after it becomes obvious to all and sundry that the case should be dropped.) If convicted of wrongful prosecution, said prosecutor should suffer the same sentence he was trying to impose on the people he wrongfully accused. In Nifong’s case, that’d be, what? 20 years?
Yes, such a law would come too late to go after Nifong with. But it would keep other prosecutors from following his example.
Agreed that the Group of 88 should get some heat for their public prejudging of the case. Keeping their statements available along with their names, so that students and parents can avoid their classes would be the minimal start.
One thing that I hope results from this fiasco is a decrease in frat houses hiring strippers. I’m not real hopeful that such kids will start acting like real adults, but I’m hopeful.
Erbo,
That’s ridiculous. What you do is keep everything under wraps until the grand jury actually indicts someone. Also gag orders are in place for the prosecution and defense until such time. Of course, you can’t do anything about leaks. But, it’s something. The important thing is to protect the reputations of all involved until it can be established that an actual crime occurred.
That whole scenario of throwing prosecutors in jail smacks of comic-book justice. Does anyone really think Nifong will last much longer?
batyah,
If she made the story of out of whole cloth, yes, jail time would seem reasonable. But, all that has occurred for now is that the people of NC have concluded they don’t have enough evidence to move forward. What has to happen now is a criminal investigation of the woman in question to determine what crime she committed. What are the statutes involved? If she sticks to her story, and the case is dropped, what is the actual crime. This belongs in the civil arena.
#40 Erbo suggests: “If convicted of wrongful prosecution, said prosecutor should suffer the same sentence he was trying to impose on the people he wrongfully accused.”
I love the idea! However, since lawyers would be writing the law, I suspect they would come up with some list of “degrees of unlawful prosecution.” Such as: “unintentional wrongful prosecution,” “justified wrongful prosecution,” “wrongful prosecution under mitigating circumstances,” “wrongful prosecution under the influence of inadequate preparation,” ” wrongful prosecution with a pure heart,” etc.
I am happy for the Duke 3, but I also feel a loss due to the end of an interesting diversion. It has been entertaining watching the MSM trip all over themselves while being shown up by mere bloggers.
I know there will be more to come but I doubt that it will have the same intensity. Now that the lacrosse players freedom will no longer be on the line, and this case can in no way further their agendas, I expect the MSM will ignore the Duke hoax as much as possible.
The lying, gang-rape-fetishist, who at any given moment has enough sperm in her to re-populate New Orleans, would have made for some great court TV if the defense lawyers could have gotten her on the witness stand.
I guess we will just have to settle for watching the miserable end of Nifong’s puny career.
A pox on Nifong for much of the nonsense and injustice. Now the media might once again start spending time on important issues like the now-revealed paternity of Anna Nicole’s baby.
Btw, what does The View’s Rosie have to pontificate about this Duke case?
Why can’t Fox have a competing version of that View using Lashawn Barber, Michelle Malkin, Kirsten Powers and maybe someone like Dr. Helen?
I agree with all that you have said and would add this caveat to college sports teams. Avoid the very appearance of evil.
Forgo the stripper and donate the money to charity.
#16,
I agree that no sane person would have ever gone forward with those charges. Harsh reality is, they did and many people (Duke 88 and Nifong) still believe a crime was committed.
Leila,
Yuck! Does there have to be a “conservative” version of everything? Next, you’ll be telling me there should be Christian versions of pop music. Oh, wait…
If I use the word fantasy will I be attacked? Give me a break! Lie or Fantasy who cares!
Why can’t Fox have a competing version of that View using Lashawn Barber, Michelle Malkin, Kirsten Powers and maybe someone like Dr. Helen?
I would have to DVR that one everyday!
Leila,
You could never do “The View” with that line-up because they would all fight over who was supposed to be the “sexy” one. (Two of them would be mistaken.) Also, you think the women on the real “View” cut each other off now? Your version would have to be on tape. Although it would be jarring to see them continue an interview with missing teeth, black eyes and various other injuries. I can hear it now.
Coming up on The Conservative View: Contrarians and the women who love them!
Roy Cooper… Paraphrasing here: “These three young men are INNOCENT!!!!”
Actually, LaShawn, I think she had no ‘fantasies’ at all. She showed up for ‘work’ drunk and high, and not having washed after somehow obtaining the DNA of a large number of men on and in her body and clothing, and the cops arrived. They were going to take her to a mental health facility (which she’d been to before) so she told them she was raped and they took her to the ER, swabbed her, and released her. Then, when interviewed by the police, she could identify no one. Nor did she identify anyone the second time. Only when Sgt Gottlieb used the irregular ‘line up’ was she definitely told by the cops that she had to identify someone ‘or else.’
She’s clearly had been trying to get out of the hole she dug for herself but Nifong and his team of ‘policemen’ would not let her.
Snifbong is a complete idiot. I hope they throw the book at him. Then pick up the book and throw it again….and again…
I’ll approve it if you clear up whether I’d be a “mistaken” one. I don’t know if that’s a veiled insult or compliment. – Admin
“Innocent.”
Again, Cool. Just plain cool.
TaterCon
#41
Umm..they were Lacrosse players, not fraternity men. Snarky comments about “frat boys” have nothing to do with this issue. Checkity-check yourself, before you wreck yourself.
Misfit
Delta Sig ‘90
I predict those who convicted the three players without a trial (Duke professors, New Black Panther Party, Jesse Jackson, etc.) will neither agree with the decision nor ever rescind their premature public convictions of the players.
The Attorney General just dropped ALL charges on the three players. He went farther and said these boys were INNOCENT. That had to be music to their ears. The AG said that Nifong should never gone forward with this case. And, perhaps he is going to face prosecution, and should be dis-barred! I think he only went forward to win the election. And, perhaps it has all backfired as of today.
Wow…You are touchy…Let’s see there’s 4 people…2 would not be sexy…I’ve been flirting with you like crazy….+ You hate me = I must be “mistaken”.
Didn’t understand some of that, but it sounds good, so I’ll approve the other comment.
– Admin
#42: “What you do is keep everything under wraps until the grand jury actually indicts someone. Also gag orders are in place for the prosecution and defense until such time. Of course, you can’t do anything about leaks. But, it’s something. The important thing is to protect the reputations of all involved until it can be established that an actual crime occurred.”
Which is exactly what Nifong didn’t do…and if he had, this case might have sunk without a trace before anyone outside the area ever knew about it. It’s toward prosecutors who act as he did that my proposal is directed.
“That whole scenario of throwing prosecutors in jail smacks of comic-book justice.”
No, it’s called “making the punishment fit the crime.”
Or, do you want me to list who I think would be “mistaken”? Oh…but then I would be insulting them. Would that be okay? Or, maybe a sense of humor would negate all of it.
Nope. I got it. – Admin
Erbo,
Sorry…but most cases are circumstantial. Square that with the reluctance of juries these days to convict unless they see “CSI” style forensics. You would hamstring too many prosecutors in the interest of punishing one symbolically.
Erbo,
That’s actually knee-jerk justice. I gave you too much credit before.
What I wonder about is how many people are in prison today because of ROGUE DAs filing charges so that they can win an ELECTION?????
Wow,
What I didn’t expect to see happen is all these people deciding it’s open season on the accuser now. This didn’t happen to Kobe’s girl.
Actually I did expect that…I was hoping I was wrong. Drudge has her “dossier” linked on the front page.
I think Crystal Gail Mangum belongs in a prison psycho ward…
Redleg,
If you really wonder about that, check out (or as Rosie says, “Google it”) the history of the Fells Acre molestation case here in Massachusetts. It is an aggregious example of just that. And pretty-boy Romney doesn’t cover himself in glory with this one either.
Now my question is: Was this the way Nifong operated in all prosecutions? If so, or even if it is just an aberration, we will probably see a lot of cases reexamined for Brady violations. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are even some new trials granted as a result.
Angel
That was not a rhetorical question. It is a well known fact that INNOCENT people go to jail/prison every day. This is not a Democrat/Republican problem, it is a National problem.
There are power hungry DAs all over this land.
One other thing that bothers me and that is all it takes for a man to lose his Constitutional rights is for a woman to cry abuse/rape. If my wife of 32 years was to say that I abused her then the government would take my guns from me, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
NOT RIGHT and every women in this country should be demanding this liar’s head for lying. It is going to make it even harder to convict someone of rape sans 30 eyewitnesses.
Cooper says his office has considered charging the stripper-accuser, but decided that it’s “in the best interest of justice†not to charge her. I suspect he’s alluding to her psychological problems.
That’s kinda too bad–she could plead guilty in exchange for a sentence of “mental health facilty.” She’s not going to get any help in that regard from her supporters; all she is to them is a pawn or an illustration of an archetype. La Shawn and readers probably care more about her as an -actual person- than anyone in the Group of 88, despite what we think of her behavior.
And I hope she’s not still stripping/hooking, because everyone in the country knows she’s lost all her credibility when it comes to reporting an assault. It’s become more unsafe than it was before.
Nifong, OTOH, not a shred of empathy.
I predict those who convicted the three players without a trial (Duke professors, New Black Panther Party, Jesse Jackson, etc.)
Don’t wait for it, besides they have other interest right now. Jesse and Al wants to un-Imus us. The Black P Party can’t risk being called House N$%&%&& or Sell-Out. The Duke 88 MINUS 1 might loose credibility in the class room. Every one of them should be listed in the lawsuit. Crystal should be charged!
In the not too distant past, if a black man in the South was accused of raping a white woman, he’d be lucky to make it to trial instead of being lynched. Of all people, blacks in the South should know the dangers of rushing to judgment and denying the presumption of innocence. Making up for past injustices (and there were many) is no excuse for committing an injustice today.
I hope one of the former defendents will become the finest defense attorney that Duke Law School ever produced.
#72 Angel–
Why are you surprised it is now open season on the stripper? It has certainly been open season on the Duke lacrosse players. Now that they’ve been proven innocent, why shouldn’t the stripper face (reap) what she sowed?
Louise B
Not only Nifong should have apologize, atone, etc. What about the so-called members of the “Black Community” (I hate that term: it’s as if all African-Americans are of the same mindset) in Raleigh-Durham who were demanding the Duke players’ heads? Their demands to prosecute these three young men went on long after it became clear that the accuser was lying.
La Shawn -
A simple thank you for all the great posts and opinions you expressed regarding the Duke Rape Case. You were a wonderful, positive force on this topic.
Without getting into labels and namecalling, Mike Nifong was the genesis of these charges and should be held to account. If after a review of the evidence by the AG shows “no evidence” just what the heck was Mike doing? Smoking a Nibong? For what damage this man wrought he should be disbarred and fined very heavily.
Well, illiterate low-lifes get raped too.
Who is illiterate? The stripper? I figure that one who maintains a B average in college can read and write.
Attacks on her character are to be expected, but the “illiterate” comments reek of stereotyping.
Wow, this is my first time seeing a picture of the stripper. Yikes!
Shameful. Realize that if she was a devout Christian living a righteous life and working hard in school and/or in a legitimate profession, she would have the exact same face.
GREAT live-blogging, LaShawn
.
I’d like to add to the list of Things That Oughta Be Done:
1) Since Duke University threw them under the bus, they should be required to REFUND all tuition, fees, and book costs the LaCrosse Three have EVER had to pay to attend that foul school and give them free scholarships to ANY AND ALL education they want in the future. And that’s just the LEAST they should do!
2) The 88 Duke professors (yes… actually 87, with one stray) who issued their inflammatory statements should be forced to resign. I know most of them probably have tenure, but they have used their positions to aggrivate what was a very bad situation. Forcing them to resign would be different from firing them (where tenure is concerned), and could be accomplished by transferring them to teaching courses like advanced basket-weaving. Their actions in this case have proven, beyond all doubt, that they have no grasp of common sense or the law of the land (innocent until proven guilty), and are therefore ignorant and actively dangerous as teachers.
3) Jackson and Sharpton should be sued for making inflammatory statements in the news media. Sharpton was VERY careful to state that he was taking the prosecutors word for what was happening, so I don’t think he can be prosecuted for libel or slander (a quote from Sharpton to Sean Hannity was, “… I think the prosecutor knows more about this than you and I do…”), and probably Jackson was equally careful, but what both of these men have said SHOULD be prosecuted. If there isn’t anything actionable here, there SHOULD be, and it should be agressivly persued.
4) The New BP should be sued agressively for libel and/or slander, and should be sued for agitation in this case. From what I can see, they weren’t as careful as Sharpton was in making public statements.
5) The news media who pushed the story beyond the “reasonable doubt” and “innocent until proven guilty” level should be included in a massive lawsuit including the others mentioned.
6) Nifong and Mangum should both go to prison for perpetrating this hoax.
Mamapajamas @90;
I am in total agreement with what should be done. I look forward to hearing what the attorneys for the Duke three will do next!!!
WOW! You know, this whole situation is a disgrace for the players and the alleged accuser. They knew they paid for some fun that night and are far from being innocent. They just got busted is how I see it. However, it’s a way far more disgrace on how these “Ladies of the night” can disrespect their bodies for a few bucks, then turn around and want to be RESPECTED. I hope they ALL learned a lesson from this. Nuff said!
Blezzed Soul @92,
The Duke three are INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT! INNOCENT!
Redleg,
“If my wife of 32 years was to say that I abused her then the government would take my guns from me, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.”
As well they should.
LaShawn, thank you for being one of the great beacons of light through this dark year of the Duke Hoax. The ability to think clearly (and to see through bull) is apparently a rare quality these days among those who write/report for a living. You and KC Johnson are two of the big heroes in this mess.
It was the Duke hoax that brought me to your site in the first place, but I reckon I’ll keep checking in from time to time. I don’t agree with everything you say, but you always have good points and always state them well.
Thanks again,
Jim Curry
Louise,
Because it’s clear this woman has very serious problems. Someone earlier did make a good point…She is a real person who did something very wrong, but she is not the devil. A lot was made of the “privileged” Duke kids. They were lucky they had access to protections like good defense attorneys and families and community support. This woman has none of that. The only support she has is from people who want to use her. It would be like stomping on a flea.
I’m not saying there should be no repercussions, but I think we need to step away from this and let it go. It’s over. Anything else would be vengeance, not justice.
Excellent work on this case, La Shawn.
Considering that you’ve had 44 posts and 2 op-eds on this, I suppose you’ll be ready to discuss it all on my radio show this Saturday…
CJL
Not going there in this thread. – Admin
LaShawn — thank you for being on the story from the beginning.
I have a small request — how about not naming the category for these posts “Duke Rape Case”? A rape never happened. Call it the “Duke Lacross Case” or if you must mention rape, call it the “Duke Rape Hoax”?
Thanks!
Angel-
You sure come across as having a chip on your seemingly moonbat shoulder, a real nattering nabob of negativity in responding, at least in my estimation.
My alternate “The View” would, at least, have women with IQs bigger than their shoes sizes. And which two would not be sexy? Seems to me all four are sexy in their own way. And no speech impediments like Baba Wawa displays. What is O’Donnell really qualified as expert on other than weight issues or lesbianism? Steel can’t be melted? Hate America first? The twit thinks American men are keeping women down. The Muslim male is given a free pass, what with culture being given free reign in the Mideast. I’ve had libs tell me if Muslim women don’t like their circumstances, it is up to THEM to change the way they are treated by their masters. Yeah, right. Love to see your ilk and Rosie adapting to life in a burka. Oh, that’s right, Rosie and Ellen G. would already be headless and dead.
I can understand you’re not printing my first comment. It is nice to see that “justice” is done and that this whole hoax (lack of a better word) should never have gotten out of hand. Perhaps the whole justice system will look upon this and clean up their act. How many others were rail roaded into jail, based upon their color and lack of money. Your coverage will excellent on this subject, thanks.
Where exactly does a person go to get their reputation back? Let’s ask the activist professors at Duke, the black race baiters, and white social class envy liberals. I wonder where’s jackson, sharpton and the new black panther party at right now. Like I’ve always said, people should use their brains to think and not their skin. I feel so sorry for our nation. It’s pretty pathetic that ignorant, weak minded people have to try and drag everybody else into their self loathing worthless lives.
Anyone taking bets on Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson taking the time and money to help the accuser-stripper with her mental health problems?
I know…I know…stupid bet.
Oh and a reminder…even O.J. wasn’t declared innocent.
Leila,
It’s called a sense of humor. Google it! By the way…I’m a man, baby!
Also, I’m well aware of the threat of Muslim extemists. I was screaming about the Taliban and Al-Queda long before 9/11.
Did you say something about a chip? Funny, I don’t see one…where did it….oh…Leila, give me my chip back!
Leila,
Who quotes Spiro Agnew these days?
I think the reason this was so compelling for people on both sides was again the bugaboo of color. We’ve been playing tit-for-tat justice since O.J. It’s not getting us anywhere as a nation.
So, all those folks that want to see lawsuits galore (and I’m sure they’ll be a few) get ready because when the next crazy race and sex event/crime/non-crime happens, remember what you said today and be consistent.
There was a rush to judgement by the news media in this case. Nifong wanted to make political hay with the high-profile case. The “rape victim” lied and the Duke President and 87 or 88 faculty members jumped on the accusers band wagon. I hope that Duke University gets sued over this travesty of justice !!
Hey Tater;
I’m hearing that the attorneys may file lawsuits against Duke U., Durham County and/or the state of North Carolina, and of course Mike Nifong… What say you?
And, oh, I hear that the Duke three can recoup three times their expenses for this injustice…
#108 Angel proclaims: “We’ve been playing tit-for-tat justice since O.J. It’s not getting us anywhere as a nation.”
The alternating list of the top ten examples that prove the assumption that we’ve been playing tit-for-tat justice since O.J. would be? ……….
But, all that has occurred for now is that the people of NC have concluded they dont have enough evidence to move forward. – Angel
Actually, what I heard was full exculpation – a declaration of innocence which goes far beyond a mere lack of evidence to go forward.
They were lucky they had access to protections like good defense attorneys and families and community support. This woman has none of that. -Angel
For a great deal of the time,this woman had the full support of the Duke university administration and students, the surrounding community, her university, the NOI, the media, and her family.And, don’t forget the group of 88. Further, she has received a scholarship to college. As far as access to protections – this woman received extraordinary support of her lying manipulations that most criminals can only dream about. Untold hundreds of thousands were spent protecting her lies. She BLEW her support and that had nothing to do with her lack of privilege and everything to do with her lack of principles and class.
And, just for a refresher, the “lucky” boys had to move out of their home in fear, they lost their athletic careers due to the lack of support of their schools, they had to drop out of school due to a lack of support of their schools, they were intimidated by the NOI and fellow students and had no support to ensure their security, they had little support on the Duke campus and were villainized, and so on. As far as their local community, one can hardly accuse them of being supportive.
Only a highly selective memory would tout the imagined support received by the boys and say they were “lucky.” Further, watching one’s parents hock their life savings probably does not feel all that lucky, either.
Good words, AC. It would be nice if the citizens of Durham had to pony up the defense costs. Nifong obviously used this case for political gain and they voted for him. I’d also like to see some of the Duke Endownment go to restitution and a search for a President and 88 new professors. Unfortunately, none of this will happen. Durham ought to be looking for a number of police replacements and an entirely new DA staff. Seems that none of them had the moxie to try to apply the brakes to this run-away train.
In North Carolina, there doesn’t seem to be much in the system to stop something like this until it gets very bad and has much national attention. There also doesn’t seem to be much to stop an out-of-control DA. One wonders how many folks are doing time because of people like Nifong.
Helio,
Don’t be so disingenuous. That’s all we do in this country all day, every day. Don’t pretend otherwise.
AC,
All that support you cite for the accuser went away the minute the klieg lights died. And, my original comments were posted before the actual press conference. You’re very selective in what you chose to quote. Even LaShawn says how important the support of family, friends and community were to the Duke kids, so they were indeed lucky. Everything I’ve said is in the spirit of moving forward. If you want a pound of flesh from this woman, I’m sure you’ll get it. But, I’m not handing you the knife.
AC,
They were also lucky in that they had family willing to make that kind of sacrifice. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s over now. Hopefully, everyone involved can move forward and make decent lives for themselves.
AC don’t forget that they’ve only raised about 1/3 of the money they now owe in legal fees. And they’ll never get their reputation back. You would think after the Kobe Bryant episode that we would not race to judgement but I guess I think too much…
Angel, you’re just bangin’ the same old pans of racial discord by dismissing what the “white boys” suffered as a mere inconvenience because ultimately they are “lucky” cause they had so much wealth and family support. What the h*ll?? And the stripper is a “victim” cause everyone just wants to use her. Yeah, well, she’s still a liar (among other things) who was willing to DESTROY three innocent men’s lives, as well as all their families’ lives. That makes her wicked in my book. Just because you are poor, disadvantaged, and have few good role models in your life doesn’t automatically mean that you have to become a wicked person. In fact, I’m sick to death of that negative stereotyping of poor people — many poor people manage to have noble character and lead law-abiding lives.
Furthermore, if it is of any interest to you, in OUR legal system (the Talmud), judges are instructed NOT to favor the poor or give deference to the rich in any court case. Rather, “justice, justice, shall you pursue.”
RE characterizing Crystal Gayle Mangum — here deliberately and intentionally identified for the deliberate and intentional protective assistance of any others whom she might falsely accuse in the future — as a psychologically at-least-somewhat-excusable-victim-somehow:
But. . .then couldn’t, or more critically, shouldn’t, one also find comparably excusatory sympathy for Mike Nifong on the grounds of his similarly obvious mental health disability?
Or am I not properly understanding matters?
What if Nifong were to be characterized as similarly deranged in terms of his psychologically unhealthy need to maintain status through his position of power and authority?
Where exactly are we supposed to draw the line when it comes to cutting people slack on the grounds of their supposed psychological infirmities?
And on what grounds or principles, and why?
Angel;
I have no desire to pound the flesh from this woman….a figment of your imagination, as I support the decision of the family to “let it go.” I am simply pounding the flesh from your words because I disagreee with your assesment. BIG difference!
The support of the boy’s families was crucial. This is a far cry from “They were lucky they had access to protections like good defense attorneys and families and community support. This woman has none of that.”
Your comments reflect the notion that the boys had widespread support and that Mangum had none. This is simply not the case and Mangum had enormous support for a very long time.
By the way, how has Mangum been living all this year? How has she been paying her bills? Who has paid for her legal support? How much has been spent on her support? Who paid for the birth of her child? Sounds to me as if she has had a lot of support, and one doubts that it has come at the sacrifice of her life savings.
Lastly, it is hardly being selective to highlight your highly flawed statement that there was simply a lack of evidence to go forward. The fact that they had been found innocent after months of investigating every shred of evidence is IMPORTANT.
Oh wait, we were supposed to know that you had not actually seen the press conference before we nailed you on yet another erroneous statement.
Helio;
GREAT question and hardly disengenuous, but it is unlikely that you will get a satisfactory answer as I am sure you expected.
Acksiom,
I have wondered about the very same thing. We seem to pathologize the bad behavior of a certain segment of society as if THEIR bad behavior must indicate that they are mentally ill and can never be “just plain ugly decisions based upon loving themselves too much and their neighbors too little.”
If it is true that one is merely a reflection of one’s background, then it would be just as logical to excuse “those who have been raised to think they are privileged” for their bad behavior.
Batya;
Also a GREAT point. Poor people can be very noble and laying every negative at the foot of poverty and not choice is wrong.
AC,
I don’t know if you noticed, but all the comments have time stamps. So, if you were inclined to be fair to me, you could have figured it out that I hadn’t seen the actual press conference at the time of that post.
And monetary support hardly replaces the support that these kids had. Making this statement is not bashing them or taking anything away from them. They had and continue to have the love and support of their families, friends and community.
Which would you rather have: Jesse, Al, the 88, BPP all running to the spotlight and pledging money (We have no idea if anybody made good on their pledges) or what the Duke kids had. They went through a terrible ordeal. But, to deny they are in a much better position from which to recover and go on to lead productive lives is simply wrong.
batyah,
Not once in any of my posts have I referred to the Duke kids as the “white boys”. You did that. Don’t project that nonsense onto me. I’m intrigued by your use of the word justice. The press conference made clear that charging the accuser would not serve the interests of justice.
Not once did I excuse her behavior. In fact, I called her a liar several times. Since she is by your definition, “wicked”, what would be the proper punishment? Should we stone her? Or, ostracize her? Or, should we simply walk away from all of it because it really is over and let everybody put their lives back together as best as they can.
What some of you want is retribution, not justice. Not even the families want that. What should happen now is we all walk away and simply let these people put their lives back together as best they can. Hopefully, they can all go on to lead productive lives. And we have learned (hopefully) that the justice system can be corrupt like any other institution.
La Shawn
Airhead student at “dancer’s” college in Durhan was disappointed Duke accused weren’t bought to trial.
Gives me pause about quality of students there.
I don’t know if you noticed, but all the comments have time stamps. So, if you were inclined to be fair to me, you could have figured it out that I hadn’t seen the actual press conference at the time of that post. – angel
Listen up all you posters out there!
Please check the time stamps on Angel’s posts. Also, please determine what time zone he lives in and what stations may have aired what shows in whatever area he lives in BEFORE you point out any errors in his posts. Otherwise, you are simply not being FAIR to Angel.
Angel;
Quite frankly, it goes without saying that monetary support hardly replaces the love of a family, and if you had confined your original comment to say that the lacrosse players were fortunate that they had the enormous support of their very loving families, that would have been one thing. But you actually said; ” “They were lucky they had access to protections like good defense attorneys and families and community support. This woman has none of that†which is highly inaccurate. In other words, once again, the debate is not over the quality of the support, but the errancy of your statement.
Further, Mangum had far more than just the support of Jesse, Al, the 88, BPP and the boys had far less than the support of the Duke community or the Durham community. Was it the “supportive of the boys” community that voted for a man that had disastrous approval ratings before he decided to skewer these young men. The examples of the lack of support these boys received from the community are staggering and the examples of the support that Mangum received from the community are numerous.
Also, do we know that Mangum had NO support from her family?
Helio,
Am I going to sit here and list trials for you? No. I’m not one of your students. I still contend that since O.J., there has been an ever-increasing notion that we have to take sides in trials based on color and not justice and this has contributed to much of the racial animus in America today.
Blacks and whites are equally to blame for this. I have come to believe that we are with the increase in the number of multiracial children in this country, we are entering the “Post-Race Era”. I have also become more convinced that race is largely a social construct by which we can classify (or subjugate, if we choose) people. There is something unique about the black and white divide in America. I’m still figuring it out. Unlike some on this board, I don’t claim to know everything (to sometimes laughable effect), but I do have opinions about current matters. I’m sorry that people don’t agree with me all the time, if at all. But, that’s not my problem.
AC,
You’re a peach!
AC,
The times are Eastern Standard. I think the presser was around 2 or 2:30 EST. So, it’s not as complicated as you would make it sound. I do realize you think you’re being humorous as my expense. Let’s see if I can rustle up a belly laugh. Wait for it…wait for it….No, it’s just not coming. Sorry, man.
AC,
Again, I ask everyone…Whose support would you rather have: shallow race-hustlers and spotlight chasers or your family and friends? I do feel bad for this woman. Sympathy does not excuse her behavior. But, it’s clear in the words of my grandmother, “She wasn’t raised right!”
I didn’t much of what was posted here about the case because I was pretty certain of what I would find. And, I think I’m probably going to leave the would-be justice-mongers to their own devices. It’s over and I’m really done with it.
Angel;
If being a peach means that one cannot dissect your statements in the same fashion that you dissect others, then you are right and I am not a peach. If being a peach means that once should recognize that you are superior in your embrace of the high road,then you are right and I am not a peach. If being a peach means that one should have looked at the time stamp on your comment,then you are right and I am not a peach.
I don’t even like peaches because they have fuzzy skin.
AC,
Being a peach means you are too fuzzy, tend to spoil quickly and jealous of your tastier cousin, the nectarine.
Again, I ask everyone…Whose support would you rather have: shallow race-hustlers and spotlight chasers or your family and friends? – angel
AGAIN, I respond…we all know the kind of support we value and AGAIN, that’s simply not what you said originally.
Angel, all I’m saying is this: a crime has been committed against these Duke students. Nifong may get disbarred, and Duke may get sued, and the state of NC may get sued. Fine. They all deserve to be punished. What happens to the stripper? Nothing. Yet she is the one who started this whole mess. She should not just walk away, scot free. There must be consequences for making false accusations. Perhaps she should do community service. Perhaps she should be forced to pay restitution to the victims that she created. I don’t know specifically HOW to punish her, but I do know that justice is not served if she walks away free just because she’s pathetic.
So,
AGAIN, here we are…we have deconstructed my statement to the Nth degree, even though we all know the intent. And, so it goes…
Batyah,
I’m not saying she should get away with anything. But, that is not up to me. E-mail or call the Attorney General’s office in N.C. with your suggestions. I’m just speaking to my opinion. Everything else is out of my hands.
AC,
I stick by my original statement. These boys were lucky. If that’s wrong to say, then I’m wrong. But, I feel comfortable with it.
You’re comparing facing prison time and incurring millions in legal fees to defend yourself against a race-baiting procecutor with the weight of the state behind him to that tripe? It’s a good thing you’re not man enough to use your real name, “Joe,” Jeff, or whatever you’re going by these days. I’d mock you mercilessly and publicly for making such idiotic comparisons. And what you think of me is about as interesting to me as watching flies gathering on dung. – Admin
I’m still trying to figure out what in the world O.J. has to do with this matter.
On a slightly different note, what is wrong with Nifong? Does anyone want to share their insights? Why would he pursue a case that surely he himself knew was bogus?
Batyah, that seems like the million-dollar question. He is either a complete idiot, or he was so hungry for a headlining conviction that he willfully hid the facts of the case. I’m voting for the latter, based upon the fact that idiots don’t graduate from law school, but intelligent creeps sometimes do.
OK, so let’s say Nifong’s career is in the dumpster (rightly so), the accuser gets community service and a slap on the wrist. What happens to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and all the others who were only too happy to vilify the Duke students as lascivious, immoral, privileged white kids? Where’s the call for them to appear on television and radio and apologize long and loud?
#101: Hey Tater;
I’m hearing that the attorneys may file lawsuits against Duke U., Durham County and/or the state of North Carolina, and of course Mike Nifong… What say you? Comment by Tate
Sorry no time for lengthy reply, Tate — doing volunteer work for the Azalea Festival here in Wilmington….. great volunteer gig, driving Miss North Carolina to all the appearances and receptions!!
As for predicting what kind of suits may lie ahead, I think I’ll beg off … I’m better at sorting out a case that’s already on my desk than I am in engaging in predictions of what other lawyers may do with cases in the future!!
TaterCon
Wow Tater! You poor thing… having to drive Miss North Carolina around.
Have fun!!
#140, I would guess blind ambition, hubris, egotism or whatever one wants to call it. We have more lawyers than we need in this country, and they have to get attention somehow, though we need good ones.
Anyone know what happened to Kemp? Can’t believe he’s not weighing in on all this.
Yeah, where’s Mr. Kemp? I’m sure he will have some info on future lawsuits…
Better yet, where’s Jan? Jan, where are you?
LaShawn
Haven’t read all the comments, but I would just like to point out an example of a black female writer for ESPN.com who humbled herself totally today in apologizing to the players. Please read (and/or post if you could) this and use it as an example that not all “liberal” black writers are satying silent on this and at least ONE is apologizing to the players.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070412&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1
Jemele Hill sounds like an eminently fair-minded and honest individual. Excellent commentary.
I stick by my original statement. These boys were lucky. – angel
If only that is what/all you said….
Tate;
Smiles back atcha….
Huh?
“I have no desire to pound the flesh from this woman….a figment of your imagination, as I support the decision of the family to “let it go.â€
a figment of your imagination
I should have known! A red flag did go up mentally when I first read it. But so many other people try to discredit their philosophical opponents by raising the spectre of mental illness. Jan can’t be the only one, right?
Perhaps, I was wrong.
I agree RedBeard… I think Jemele Hill’s commentary showed her integrity and character. It takes a big person to say I’m sorry. Too bad Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are too small-minded to ever consider being so big…
Jan, is that you??? LOL!
First of all, thank you LaShawn for being one of the few black americans who let it be known that this whole Duke rape case was nothing but a sham.
When I first heard about this mess, I knew it was fishy. It was very hard telling my felllow black co-workers and friends that I just did not buy this rape accusation. I refused to jump on the Jesse and Al bandwagon. They are not my “leaders”.
Since the professional shakedown artists, Jesse and Al are nearly finished unleashing their Civil Rights battle on Don Imus (they are going after CBS to fire him), who provides a ranch to help terminal kids, including black kids who are dying from sickle cell anemia, I wonder how they are explain their actions against the Duke players and spin the decision for the charges to drop.
I guess we will all find out after they travel to the UK to demand Tony Blair to resign for his recent comments on the connection of the recent increase of street crimes to rebellious black youth.
Thanks, Kim.
NOTE TO READERS:
I’m allowing Kim’s comment because her point is very important. But…I don’t want Don Imus discussed in this thread. I plan to cover the topic at a later date. This is a Duke lacrosse case thread.
The Duke case: She is a liar. They were and are innocent, three million dollars later. Justice is the winner. How many of us could or would have held out or have $3 million? They wanted them to plead to a lesser charge many times. Congratulations to them for standing with The Truth.
Losers: Not just the liar, the panderer, but everyone who voted for Nyphong for racial reasons. That is racism. They know who they are. Guilty. This must not happen again. I had a similar although lesser false accusation. The guilty parties know who they are also. Shame on them.
First of all, thank you LaShawn for being one of the few black americans who let it be known that this whole Duke rape case was nothing but a sham.
Based on discussions I’ve read, I would say that most black Americans had concluded some time ago that her accusation was false.
Did she lie or is she delusional?
delusion-a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary (from m-w.com)
Attorney General Roy Cooper said, “Our investigators who talked with her and the attorneys who talked with her over a period of time think that she may actually believe the many different stories that she has been telling. They worked real hard with her. It doesn’t make sense. You can’t piece it together.” (from a NYP column)
Note: “…she may actually believe the many different stories…”
Should she be allowed outside of a mental hospital? Does she still have custody of her children?
I agree, RaLph… If she’s that unstable, she should be in a mental hospital (let’s not forget that’s where the police were taking her before she started saying she was raped). Who knows what she’ll do next? I think she’s a menace to society…
#160 and #161 RaLph and Tate: Thanks for bringing up the problems Crystal obviously has with her mental health.
A while back on one of LaShawn’s blogs on this Duke tragedy, I asked what would become of Crystal’s children.
These kids are innocent. Their mother is probably very sick.
We have too many children who are “outcomes” rather than “centers of adult responsibility.”
As things stand, these children have a very good chance of being malnourished mentally and developmentally by an incompetent parent. Before long, they will become additional challenges for the social welfare system to attempt to reorganize and reorient. Based on current and past performance, that means they are more likely doomed than saved.
It is even likely that they will be taught at home that their lot in life is due to the way white people treat black people. If so, they will see life through that lens and they will suffer a societal alienation that they impose upon themselves.
It makes me so weary that this cycle just keeps repeating itself.
I grieve for these kids. Hopefully, they can be swept up into the arms of a loving, responsible family. I prefer a Christian home with a mom and a dad. I could care less what race they are.
“I have no desire to pound the flesh from this woman….a figment of your imagination, as I support the decision of the family to “let it go….people try to discredit their philosophical opponents by raising the spectre of mental illness†– angel
Tate, Redbeard, Helio and others;
Do you guys think that telling someone that they “imagined” something is akin to “raising the spectre of mental illnessâ€? strike The comment that I made was #121?
I sure hope not! I imagine all sorts of things, but so far I’ve not been certified as mentally ill.
Right now, I imagine myself headed for home.
I just sent Nancy Grace an email. This is what I wrote:
Nancy;
I think it would be big of you to apologize to the three young men at Duke who were falsely accused of rape. I used to love your show, but when it became obvious that your view of their innocence was slanted I stopped watching. But I started watching again yesterday after Roy Cooper announced their innocence to see what was being reported on Court TV. All other anchors have commented on this obvious hoax. Why haven’t you? I think an apology for your rush to judgment is warranted and would go a long way to help heal these families and redeem your reputation. I hope you will consider my suggestion…
Look, I’m never going to approve college kids hiring strippers for parties. That’s just asking for trouble. But when a govt. official like this uses and destroys college kids for purely political purposes, these kids need to sue the bee-hind off those officials involved for abusing them this way! Teach those rats a lesson that they can’t do this to ANYBODY! WE WON’T STAND FOR IT!
Jan;
To answer your question, no.
Glad you’re here (jan/jb/ac)!
Hang tough, sister…
#163 jan,
The attorney general did everything except call Crystal a mental case. The defense lawyers have expressed satisfaction that Crystal be given a pass because they been given information that she is………. (obfuscate, babble, pass = mentally afflicted.)
Ergo, so far as Crystal is concerned vis a vis this mess, her imagination has created a reality that is not consistent with the facts. That means she is nuts.
Normally, we do not show pictures of and name the people with mental problems so long as they are not engaged in social pathologies. However, Crystal was able to attract Mike Nifong’s attention. I think that Brother Nifong would not have taken the case if he were not running for election. I think that Brother Nifong pushed the case because it had the lure of the poor little black stripper being ravished by rich, white, spoiled, Northern preppies. I think that Brother Nifong felt he could pull this thing off as the champion of the underdog in a town vs. gown atmosphere and that Brother Nifong never considered that LaShawn and others would call his bluff.
Nifong soon found himself in a “urinating competition.” What he failed to understand (as a German adage puts it) is that he was a dachshund trying to “urinate” among the tall dogs.
So, in Nifong’s imagination he was on a winning path. So does that make Nifong nuts? I think not. It is possible to be stupid and sane. I have a long list of people who prove the point. Right now, Don Imus would be one. And Dan Rather is on the list as well.
I give Crystal a pass. She is not well in the rafters.
#158
Shade, its nice to here you say that. I’m going to make an assumption here that you are black. If I’m wrong i apologize. As a white male, I will say that it sometimes seems that part of black america believes these type of lies, just because it comes from a black person. I take huge issues with that, because I believe we shouldn’t ever judge someone by the color of their skin, but by their character. Sound familiar. I’ve seen this personally in my wife’s family. Yes she is black. Not all, not even most, but some have this point of view. So the question is, how can we change that type of mentality. That we don’t automatically believe someone because their color of skin is the same as our own.
Helio;
I wasn’t talking about Crystal when I used the word imagination. Check out #121. Dachshund …I like it.
Redbeard;
Does that mean that I can “accuse” you of imagining something without impugning your mental health?
Tate;
Thanks for the welcome mat.:)
#169 multiple personalites Jan: Ooops!
Figments are delicious. We crack the nut open and pry the figment out with a nut pick and chow down on them. How does it go at your house? ( My favorites are the Philberts.)
Helio;
Figments go down “real smooth” at our house. They are considered quite a delicacy and a sign of a discerning palate. Philberts are yummy.
BTW, Jan… I saw Cousin Jakki on TV today claming that Crystal is not mentally ill… Well, if that’s the case, her butt should be in jail!!! But according to the AG’s office she can only be charged with a Misdemeanor, which frankly I don’t understand. I think false rape allegations should be a Felony! So dragging the innocent victims of this travesty to court to testify against a mean-spirited, vindictive woman charged only with a Misdemeanor is not worth the time or money the state would have to spend to prosecute the case. Perhaps Roy Cooper should also push to change the law where a person can be charged with a Felony for making false rape allegations… I would vote for that!!!
Tate;
Speaking of Cousin Jakki…do you know if Angel’s contention that Crystal had NO support from family is accurate?
I am watching Malik Shabbaz on TV and it is unbelievable! He just called Michelle Malkin a political prostitute and whore who supports a white racist Bill O’Reilly. He is spewing the most vile garbage. My skin is crawling.
Tate;
Speaking of Cousin Jakki…Do you know if Crystal has had NO family support as Angel contended?
Jan, Cystal has had MASSIVE support… Angel doesn’t know what he’s talking about. In addition, she still has the support of the hate-driven New Black Panthers… You should have seen this fool on O’Reilly tonight. I’ll provide a transcript on what this venom filled, excuse-for-a-human-being had to say as soon as I can get my hands on it…
Tatercon and all,
Easter came and our Lord was there for the boys.
It is over, Praise God.
Also, Tater if you are reading this far down I have some Watford’s BBQ sauce for you, I went by there before Easter, e mail me and it on the way.
kempermanx@yahoo.com
Kemp
Tate;
I was listening to Malik Shabbaz and seldom have I heard such hate-filled drivel spewing from the mouth of a human being. Why Shabbaz even has a law license is unfathomable. The highlight of his lowlight was calling Michelle Malkin a political prostitue/whore. What a self righteous PRIG.
Jan, right, that was part of it… Can’t wait to get the full transcript…
Angel doesn’t know what he’s talking about. -Tate
Whew…I thought I was simply “imagining” things.
Malik Shabbaz: isn’t that one half Thunderbird and one half Rolling Rock with a dash of imagination?
throw in la dash of le self importance` and you have all the ingredients…
I’m late to the party as usual. And I’m posting on La Shawn’s blog to make sure kempermanx and tatercon see this post.
I owe both of you an apology. I publicly doubted your Bar Association and NC justice. For that, I owe you an apology. The Bar’s response to Nifong’s plea for dismissal was almost rabid in its tone.
Good for them.
And good for Roy Cooper for not doing what I expected of a politician and taking the easy way out (’charges are dismissed. No further questions, thank you’). He was a class act in his pronouncement that the Duke 3 not only would not be charged, but were in fact, innocent.
For many, there was a rush to judgment to convict these boys. Regrettably, for others of us, there was a rush to judgment to convict the NC system of justice. To that I plead guilty.
And I was wrong.
Justice in NC may be slow, but in the end, there does appear to be justice.
La Shawn, thank you. Your voice added great weight in helping these boys achieve their vindication. You deserve to be proud.
Hope that I will spar with y’all on more enjoyable issues. In the meantime, I’d love to keep in touch… rebelpow@yahoo.com
OMG some weirdo Shabazz Black Panther whatever…
…just called Michelle Malkin a prostitute on national television, while she was guest hosting for O’Reilly.
There’s very little that shocks me, still, for a talk show guest to call the Host a whore, hits a new low, I think.
Reb, as we say in these parts, you’re a gentleman and a scholar. Your mea culpas are excessive, but are accepted with a gracious nod of friendship.
La Shawn, I’ll say this — you’ve brought together a great mix of fine people to your “Duke Blogs” (Geez, I hate to spell “Dook” correctly), and it does appear we’re gathering here in an afterglow of sorts to acknowledge our thoughtful and challenging dialogues with each other. Oh, and sometimes humorous, too.
So, thanks for giving us this opportunity.
TaterCon
I missed the prostitution of Michelle, now I have to go find it. Anyone think he’ll get called on the carpet for that one?
Me either…
Hey here it is on her blog. Wow… Can you say double standard? At least the BP chucklehead is honest about not apologizing to the Duke LAX players.
http://www.michellemalkin.com/
Good thing I didn’t see it I’d probably have thrown my beer through the TV ruining a perfectly good beer and a perfectly good TV.
Yeah, Shazbazz said it, but credit Michelle for giving him the what-for right back. Obviously he expected to shock and dumbfound her, instead he got whacked.
But rather than being banned, vis avis Imus, I hope & pray he shows up every so often. We need him to remind us, in his own unadorned words, how ignorant and evil his ilk really are.
By the way, what’s up with the name ‘Malik Zulu Shabazz’? Talk about confused split personalities…
On one hand, have the Zulus and Arabs traditionally ever seen eye to eye? The record is replete with examples of just how much the Arabs looove and esteem the black Sudanese, among black Africans. Especially valued are the ‘domestic’ help. NOT!
As for Shabazz, isn’t that Orkian, for cow-patty or some nonesuch?
Nanu, Nanu!
Jan,
I don’t why you’re congratulating yourself as clever. You responded to my comment under two different aliases. It’s actually pretty childish and unimaginative.
And for all those who say I don’t know what I’m talking about,
Fine. Believe what you want. But, if you really think the “support” of the New Black Panther Party is akin to the support of people who genuinely love and care for you, you’re sick.
I have to say LaShawn I am impressed with your discernment in this case!! I kinda thought that these guys might be guilty not because of any race issues but simply when you have a buncha guys drinking booze and whooping it up and some strippers, things can easily get out of hand being how ugly our depraved nature’s are.
But you saw it early…kudos…..and in this case I really hope those young men are compensated and that Duke provides them with a free education and that they get a settlement from the State of N.C.
Good work LaShawn!
#155 “one of the few black americans”
Sheeesh. Figures? Quotes? References? Again there is the impression that the majority of ‘black’ Americans are 99 percent dumberer/liars/schemers.
Do people really still think that?
But, if you really think the “support†of the New Black Panther Party is akin to the support of people who genuinely love and care for you, you’re sick.- Angel
The fact that you continue to post such a distortion after reading numerous posts acknowledging that the support of the family is crucial and “trumps all” is rather mind-boggling.
NOONE thinks that the “support†of the New Black Panther Party is akin to the support of people who genuinely love and care for one.
I would also imagine that few think that Mangum ONLY had the support of the New Black Panther Party.
To refresh your memory, here is what you posted, not what you may have WISH you posted.
“A lot was made of the “privileged†Duke kids. They were lucky they had access to protections like good defense attorneys and families and community support. This woman has none of that.” angel
Your statement is simply inaccurate.
I hate what this girl did. It really and truly sucks especially since there are women out there who are really getting hurt now everyone will doubt her.
The race baiting was just disgusting
Yeah, Jan, and Angel changes his statements every time to suit whomever he’s disputing at that time…
I think his issue is class… He seems to think that privileged folks get more genuine love, care and support from family than someone who is poor. Anyone with half a brain would know that isn’t true, and thinking otherwise – to use Angel’s words – is just sick…
Grammar nitpick: The use of “that” as a relative pronoun (as opposed to a demonstrative pronoun) to refer to a person is quite common and acceptable. It seems to me that the rule you are relying on is born of a false equation of “that” as a relative pronoun and “that” as a demonstrative pronoun.
I really think there needs to be a push to have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton publicly apologize to the Duke players as well as Duke University.
I just hate it that people think that these two fools speak for the black community.
I haven’t changed one thing that I have posted here. If you read anything about this woman’s family situation, it was dysfunctional at best. She was a stripper! What kind of support, familial and otherwise, can you possibly have if you are a stripper? The various nasty posts directed at me have nothing to do with the truth. If people want to take one statement and try to lynch me with it, fine.
#192 JohnD ham-handly mangles #155 Kims post for his own vanity.
Here is what #155 Kim posted: “First of all, thank you LaShawn for being one of the few black americans who let it be known that this whole Duke rape case was nothing but a sham.”
As clear as this statement is, JohnD apparently can not understand it. Kim says [1] “thank you LaShawn” and [2] “you let it be known that this whole Duke rape case was nothing but a sham (via the popular, powerful, thoughtful, articulate, well reasoned LBC) and [3] “you are one of the few black Americans” who have taken to the blogosphere and……see [2].
JohnD twists Kim’s post and slings this banal pap: “Again there is the impression that the majority of ‘black’ Americans are 99 percent dumberer/liars/schemers.”
JohnD, you owe Kim an apology. You owe yourself a cooling off period. Shooting from the lip has consequences.
By the way, Tate…
My family was poor. I grew up poor, but I had a married father and mother who supported me and loved me. They made sure I was able to get a decent education. I still consider them my greatest teachers. This was never about all poor people and you know it. This was about one woman.
This is also not about class. This is about two distinct groups of people. The people who supported the Duke kids and the people who supported the accuser. The Duke kids were surrounded by people who had their best interests at heart. The accuser was not. That is and always has been the difference. I really don’t know what’s is hard to understand about that. Anything further disputing this from you two (Jan and Tate) is just dishonest.
#198 Angel states with great clarity: “If you read anything about this woman’s family situation, it was dysfunctional at best. She was a stripper! What kind of support, familial and otherwise, can you possibly have if you are a stripper?”
Please leave it at that. I agree with that assessment 100% and I am particularly delighted that it has not been qualified by a reference to race.
“you are one of the few black Americans†who have taken to the blogosphere and……see
Aren’t there like 10 bloggers who have extensively taken to the blogosphere on this side of the topic, out of nearly 300,000,000 Americans?
Are not each of them, “one of the few”?
Helio,
Thank you for your civility.
#203 Shade,
Are you agreeing or disagreeing?
Do you see the remarks of #155 Kim leading to the conclusion that: “Again there is the impression that the majority of ‘black’ Americans are 99 percent dumberer/liars/schemers.�
This whole situation with the Duke rape case just shows you how quick the black community can jump on the vicitim bandwagon & EVEN IF THE GIRL LIED.
Black people can be bigoted just like whites…
Anyone remember the LA Riots?
“This whole situation with the Duke rape case just shows you how quick the black community can jump on the vicitim bandwagon & EVEN IF THE GIRL LIED.”
Will,
Who is “the black community” in your estimation? All 30 million of us? Or, the spotlight chasers who showed up in Durham?
“This whole situation with the Duke rape case just shows you how quick the black community can jump on the vicitim bandwagon & EVEN IF THE GIRL LIED.”
Will,
Who is “the black community” in your estimation? All 30 million of us? Or, the spotlight chasers who showed up in Durham?
#206 “Black people can be bigoted just like whites…”
What a (Sarcasm alert!) complement to both whites and blacks.
Do you mean that individual people, some who are referred to as black in color, can be just as bigoted as any other regardless of race?
Please remember which side of the issue La Shawn was on
#205 heliotrope
His response is probably a hyperbolic way to express how people like to label the majority of black people negatively. At least La Shawn says “some blacks” or an overrepresentation of blacks.
Why would one point out that La Shawn is one of the few blacks when the white bloggers are likewise among the few whites who blogged on this in high volume to support the accused? It seems to be another example someone trying to target the majority of black people for their negative views.
As you see, we have another reference to “the black community” jumping on the bandwagon? What is your opinion of this?
This case will set back the slowly eroding credibility of police and proscecutors. When a potentially juror and the judge asks if one would believe a police officer over another witness I would normally indicate no, but no longer – I would more than likely not believe any state witness!
Let’s be accurate here. The people who “jumped on the bandwagon” to railroad the Duke 3 were liberals and leftists, both white and black.
As for the term “black community,” it has no meaning except for the disingenuous way in which liberals and leftists use the term to falsely presuppose a monolithic bloc of people acting and thinking identically, much like the Borg Collective. When a race hustler uses the term as if he speaks for all those supposedly identical lock-stepping black Americans, it’s nothing but a sham. And the liberal media simply eat it up.
Agree 100% RedBeard, though I must add that there are many conservatives who are likewise doing this.
Shade,
You have confused me. In #210 above you write: “His response is probably a hyperbolic way to express how people like to label the majority of black people negatively.”
“People like to label the majority of black people negatively” sticks in my craw. I am sure this is true of SOME people. In fact, I am sure this is true of SOME BLACK people. Furthermore, I am sure that SOME people like to label the majority of white people negatively, and SOME WHITE people like to label the majority of white people negatively.
Do you mean to say that (all) people like to represent black people negatively?
Could you answer my question in #205 with more clarity?
Thanks.
RedBeard,
Let’s be more accurate. The fault lies with the DA exclusively as far as the railroading goes. Others latched on because he proceeded under the power of the state. We have to remember that when we give the state the power to break down doors and hold people without charge on an indefinite basis, it is a dangerous thing. It emboldens people like Nifong.
This doesn’t ignore there were people with political agendas lying in wait, but Nifong was the “adult” in this scenario. He should have known better.
Angel, are you trying to say that the New Black Panthers who were chanting “GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!” last year, before anyone knew any facts, were not “jumping on the bandwagon” to railroad those three guys?
Are you saying that the oh-so-educated liberal Duke faculty members who wrote letters condemning the boys, before anyone knew the facts, were not “jumping on the bandwagon?”
Are you saying that all the other liberal elitists who tried and condemned the 3, prior to anyone knowing the facts, were not “jumping on the bandwaqon?”
Please.
#169,
I don’t for one minute speak for black america but willingly speak as a black man. My opinion is most black people will never speak out against their own race. The risk of being called a sell-out outweighs right and wrong. Even though the Duke Guys and families deserve an apology, being call a sell-out outweighs the honorable thing to do.
dexybet,
That is sad, and a total disgrace to a community.
Angel,
I don’t give a rat if that woman had support or not, or her circumstances.
Bottom line: SHE LIED, and she believed all of her lies, and begged others to believe her.
Now that’s reprehensible in my book. She should be publicly shunned as the liar that she is. Period.
#218,
That is a disgrace! My parents taught me we are all humans and will make mistakes. The ability to admit when we are wrong shows moral character. If anyone should stand up and make a public apology, it should be Nifong, Black P’s, Al, Jesse, Duke 88 MINUS 1 and Crystal.
Don’t wait for Jesse, Al and the rest of the so-called black leaders (not my leaders) speak out against Malik for his comments.
RedBeard,
What I’m saying is that all of us have been told that we should trust the state in all matters. We’re told we should give more weight to the testimony of an officer of the court. The only person with the power to railroad anyone was Nifong. You can use whatever terminology you want to describe the aftermath. But, it’s not uncommon for us to flip open the morning paper, read what the police or DA have to say about the matter and give it the presumption of truth because of their position. Nifong had the sole responsibilty to restrain that power. He could have been silent until the fact came in. He wasn’t. We have always, as a whole, prejudged suspects without having all the facts. Maybe now, we’ll wake up.
Apology from a sports writer :
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070412
So to Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans, the three Duke lacrosse players whose lives were mangled by an unsupported rape accusation, I say two of the hardest words in the English language:
I’m sorry.
It’s not enough, and I won’t pretend that it is. For the last year, your lives and those of your families have been more difficult than any of us can possibly imagine. I’ll never know what it was like walking around normal society labeled a rapist. I’ll never know what it’s like to lose everything — your school, your program and your life — because of one unproven accusation.
(snip)
Not that this is a contest to see who was wronged the most, but the Rutgers women’s basketball team at least received justice, because Imus was suspended and dropped by MSNBC, which simulcasts his morning show. Plenty of people are outraged on their behalf.
But who is outraged on your behalf? What justice will you receive? Will the same networks that willingly aided in destroying your reputations now give you airtime to vent your frustrations? Will Jesse Jackson now offer the three of you a free scholarship like he did the “victim,” since he helped assist in your battered reputation?
(snip)
I (an AA woman writer) can’t deny that your race, gender and class have everything to do with how you were treated then and how you are treated now. Some people believe white men are exempt from sympathy and incapable of being maligned, so they will not swallow their pride and offer you the decency you should have received in the first place. Yes, you made an unwise decision to entertain strippers at a residence, but that just makes you guilty of being like 90 percent of college males.
(snip)
Newton,
If you want to shun her, be my guest. That’s not my role to play. My question is: Why are you telling me? You don’t like what I had to say. Sorry. But, how far are we going to go? The discussion was about a minor point, not the horrible thing she did. If you want to conflate that into something else, there’s nothing I can say to you.
Dexybet,
Why call them black leaders? Are they leading all of us except you? Just call them what they are: individuals who claim to represent a large group whose opinions and beliefs vary widely from approval of their tactics to outrage against them.
Hey Seahawk;
Adrian posted Jemele Hill’s commentary @149. But it was nice to read it again…
Dexybet,
I went back to read some of your earlier comments. Are you saying all black people owe the Duke kids an apology? I hope that is not the case. The only people who need to do that are the people who used whatever platform was at their disposal to prejudge the case. It should go no further than that.
Who annointed Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, etc., as “black leaders?” They shamelessly did so themselves initially, but they didn’t really “arrive” until they were confirmed and crowned and garbed in ermine and mink by the fawning liberal media.
BREAKING NEWS:
A State Bar disciplinary committee denies Mike Nifong’s request to dismiss a charge that he withheld DNA evidence.
RedBeard,
Not even close. At the beginning of their careers, they had local constituencies and did some good things. But, power corrupts. The media did annoint them not from some political agenda. It was sheer laziness. What do you think the media does when they want to get the opinion of the average black person on a topic? Ask an average black person? NO! That would involve work.
I’m going to give you some inside information. Look up the website for a company called PR Newswire. One of the services they provide is to set up live satellite interviews for Larry King, O’Reilly and the rest of them (liberals and conservatives). Producer picks up the phone, arranges for the satellite time, mostly in blocks. That’s why it seems they are everywhere. You literally can switch from CNN to Fox and see Sharpton within a one minute timeframe.
Snip from Fox News
Also Friday, a defense attorney retrieved the $100,000 bond posted by each of the former defendants, said Jermaine Patterson, head bookkeeper with the Durham County Clerk’s Office. The players were originally released on $400,000 bond, though a judge reduced the amount to $100,000 for each player last June.
RedBeard,
So, if you’re a journalist and have an account with PR Newswire and you want to interview and expert on quantum physics, they have a service called PROFNet. They find the expert for you. Provide his/her bio and even notes for your interview. They will also provide pre-produced pieces that you can order with voicer (voiceover), without voicer. Their staff can do the stand-up on the piece, if you want. Look for some of this stuff on your local news. The next time you see a piece with a reporter you don’t recognize and isn’t from some affliate. The station will say he’s “freelance”. He’s probably one of the PR Newswire guys.
So, can you honestly expect that media this lazy will do anything but call on Jackson and Sharpton?
Redbeard said:
“use the term to falsely presuppose a monolithic bloc of people acting and thinking identically, much like the Borg Collective.”
You mean in the same way that it is presupposed that only a ‘few’ black people speak out against injustice to people other than ‘blacks’?
“As for the term “black community,†it has no meaning ”
I tend to state the same thing, but usually in response to attacks on the ‘black community’ (as a whole) whereby the attackers roundly generalizes ‘blacks
“of course there ARE exceptions to the rule”
(sarcasm off)
But is it true?
Is there such a thing as a ‘black community’? Or is it only properly usable when it fits one’s preconceptions, or when one is attacking ‘blacks’ in general?
For instance, Tony Blair recently targeted a ‘black community’ (his words) in the UK and it’s tendency for political correctness to overlook the fact that many black kids are growing up with bad attitudes due to fatherlessness.
Would you argue that his use of the term ‘black community’ has no meaning in this context, or is he too, ‘race-hustling’ as you call it?
Here’s the story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html#article_continue
I’d be interested to hear your view on this, regarding hwe term ‘black community’
Regards,
JohnD
JohnD: Please refer to #199 above.
Now you ask Redbeard: “You mean in the same way that it is presupposed that only a ‘few’ black people speak out against injustice to people other than ‘blacks’?”
You are playing an enormously disingenuous game here. You are engaging in race-baiting and that is not a trifling matter.
Seahawk;
That was a moving article. It would seem that Jemelle did not feel that the boys had the support of the community. “Duke University abandoned you. A community, a nation, didn’t believe you.”
Thank God they had loving families to weather the storm.
By the way, how was it that Nifong was reelected? this is one of the pieces that I have never understood, but I know very little about Durham politics.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070412
I noticed that, Helio. The comment being twisted wasn’t even mine.
As for the other matter, “The Black Community” is a divisive term, no matter who uses it, or why. Racial pigeonholing. Generalizing. At best, in the final analysis, it’s just a silly and inaccurate characterization of what makes up a real community.
Hey dexybet
Have you apologized to the Duke players yet? Could you quote your apology for us and tell us when and where you sent it?
That is sad, and a total disgrace to a community.
It’s sad to not speak out against your race? Have you spoken out against yours?
Is it sad not to speak out against your country? I’m sure there are many people who won’t do so for fear of being labeled unpatriotic.
Thought I would jump into the alias game too.
“Thank God they had loving families to weather the storm.”
Yeah…
i found your blog very interesting…cnn should pony up and fire nancy grace for such irresponsible reporting for trying and convicting these young men on her show.
I’m sorry. I post as Shade2 elsewhere and sometimes mistakenly write it like that here.
Shade,
That wasn’t for you….It was for Jan/jc/ac.
Heliotrope:
“You are engaging in race-baiting and that is not a trifling matter.”
You couldn’t be more wrong. We shall se who is disingenuous.
Redbeard, you say
“As for the other matter, “The Black Community†is a divisive term, no matter who uses it, or why.”
I agree, in general. Where you and I do not agree, is your generalized accusation that it is a ‘liberal’ thing.
I am not disingenuous in stating that I see a lot of comments on both sides directed at ‘blacks’.
The commentaters often use a ‘disclaimer’ by saying something along th lines of:
‘I’m not talking about ALL blacks, JUST blacks in GENERAL, there are always exceptions to the rule’
But the focus they miss in saying so is exactly WHAT they are stating the ‘rule’ to be.
It is NOT just liberals who tend to view blacks The Borg. Conservatives time and again accuse the ‘black community’ of being pawns for white liberals. Two blocs with one stone!
Redbeard, would you agree with the following quote?
“Fatherlessness is prevalent in the black community on all socioeconomic levels because on all socioeconomic levels, it is no longer shameful to be pregnant and unmarried.”
What about this one:
“the illegitimacy rate in the black community holds steady at 70%, and nearly 6 out of 10 felony-murders are committed by blacks”
Or this one:
“That is, in the black community as a whole, certain behaviors and viewpoints are required for someone to be “authentically black.†Black is not just a skin color or race; it’s code for a set of proscribed behaviors and attitudes. Being authentically black means meeting a set of criteria, including thinking like other blacks and displaying certain “black†behavior.”
Would you agree that all those comments are similarly divisive, gneralizing, racial pigeonholing and silly?
Does it make you do a quick mental taxonomical check whether or not those quotes are conservative or liberal before you answer?
Regards,
JohnD
Angel;
I’m glad that you agree with me, as I stated that Family was crucial from the beginning. I also noted FROM the beginning that I did not have any knowledge of Mangum’s family situation and so could not compare and/or contrast. I have known loving families whose children went off of the tracks and so I did not make any assumption about Mangum’s family.
Since the conversation is hovering around community….
Where I departed most from your original statement(aside from the “all or none” part which I will seldom agree with) was on the notion of “community” and that the boys were “lucky” that they had all the support of their community.
When I think of what constitutes the community of college athletes who are living away from home, I think of:
the coach:
He had to leave, lost his team, and so was not available on a day to day basis. This was an enormous loss of community to the boys. Knowing that someone supports you is great, but it is really important to have the folks one is used to having by one’s side on a daily basis.
the team:
It was disbanded and the wonderful cohesiveness of the members “as a team” going to practice every day and playing games and hanging out in the locker room, strategizing over games, traveling to games, etc., was lost.
the college campus:
This is very important to young folks who live away from home. In this case, the boys were widely and publicly demonized for many months. Some parents noted that they had to accompany their boys to classes as their security was at risk. Wanted posters were arrayed around campus and the boys experienced harrassment and vitriol that was unbelievable.
the local community:
It is widely known that the local community expressed overwhelming hostility to the boys.
the administration of the college:
Rather than being supportive, the boys not only dealt with the group of 88, but they also received little overt support from other professors. In one interview that I saw when the boys were asked about their professors, they bent themselves in pretzels to not be negative and highlighted the ONE professor that went out of their way to be supportive.
Their roommates:
The boys could not even live in their home with their former roommates. This is a grievous loss because there is such a comraderie built up from living with friends and having a routine.
the media: The media is not a part of the intimate notion of community but plays a large role in shaping the views of the community and so is an integral part of it. For one thing, media disseminates much of what is discussed within communities. And, we know how the media failed to support the notion of innocent until proven guilty and put the boys lives on trial.
America;
For months, the sentiment of the country, as Jemelle stated in her moving article, was against the boys EVEN after it became known to folks like LaShawn that the case was problematic. I think that for college kids, this had to be painful to have their countrymen condemn them.
So, YES, thank GOD they had their families, and while I am sure that there were many in the community that supported them, to me, it is simply mischaracterizing the situation to state that they were lucky that they had all the support
of their community while Mangum had NONE.
#210 You are correct, Shade, in your understanding of my comments.
When people say over and over that America is a racist country as I just read four times this morning in our local paper, who do you think is included/depicted in this very common generalization?
JohnD, I was quite clear, or so I thought, when I said that the following. Please note the bold words, as you seem to have overlooked them the first time around:
“As for the other matter, ‘The Black Community’ is a divisive term, no matter who uses it, or why. Racial pigeonholing. Generalizing. At best, in the final analysis, it’s just a silly and inaccurate characterization of what makes up a real community.”
My view is clear, and has been expressed on these pages a number of times. The lumping together of every person of a certain skin tone and making generalizations about that artificially assembled group is wrong. It’s wrong when whites do it, it’s wrong when blacks do it, it’s wrong when racists do it, and it’s wrong when idiots who “only want to help” (these would be liberals) do it. And the last group is indeed the most insidious, because their racism is couched in “caring” terms.
Now that you finally understand what I said, please stop assigning the views and comments of others to me.
When people state that “America is a racist country” as I read four/five times this morning in my local paper, who is being included/depicted in this “generalization”?
jan – you couldn’t be more right about the community aspect you speak of @247. My son played lacrosse (not in college) and my daughter played soccer on a scholarship for one of the top 10 sports colleges in the nation. That is what originally drew me to this blog, was this whole Duke Lacrosse thing. I know first hand what an athlete on scholarship deals with. They were definately abandoned and didn’t have the support they rely on so heavily. Losing their coach was huge. These kids are treated like mini celebrities on campus. It’s amazing how you could go somewhere and people would say, oh aren’t you the soccer players? So when these accusations come out and these kids have posters printed that basically accuse them of this crime before there is any proof, it had to be devastating. To go from being treated as a proud part of the university (on track to a national championship – none the less) and then in one day criminals? It’s astounding.
Yes, thank Goodness they had the support of their loving families. But make no mistake, what they endured from the “community” was nothing close to support. Not initially.
And I saw that Michelle Malkin thing as well and was astounded at the racist attitude. It was disgusting.
dd
Redbeard, I don’t think you understood my question. me.
My only disagreement with you on the topic of ‘the black community’ is when you state plainly that:
“As for the term “black community,†it has no meaning except for the disingenuous way in which liberals and leftists use the term…”
This statement is demonstrably false, and you probably are unaware but it reads every bit as false/disingenuous as the stereotypes you are accusing (the Monolithic Liberal Borg Bloc?)
The three quotes above (all from LaShawn Barber) ably demonstrate that you are wrong on this, and you avoided my question entirely by trying to paint my question as a lack of comprehension.
I COMPREHEND what you are saying about ‘liberals’.
Bu tthat does not change the fact that, with respect, you are demonstrably wrong in your generalizing/sterotyping. Double-irony considerng the nature of your accusation/statement.
Many conservatives find much ground to group ‘the black community’ together for commentary. Whether they do it for good or for ill is not my focus. Tacit denial of stereotypin and race-baiting both left and right is for ill. Not good.
Sorry for typos.
jan – (tried to post earlier and it got lost…probably user error!) your comment at 247 is absolutely right on. I can tell you first hand. Originally how I found this blog was because my son played lacrosse in high school and my daughter played soccer for a university that is one of the top ten sports colleges in the nation. I know first hand how the student athletes are treated on campus. Everyone knows who they are. Their pictures are everywhere, in media guides, on posters, on the athletic website. It isn’t like an accusation can be made against them and people don’t see them and identify them first hand. To go from a team on its way to a national championship even (which is HUGE..) and then all the sudden lose everything. Their coach, their season. You don’t know how close all student atheletes become. To all of the sudden have college professors, the head of the university, the media…try them, convict them, not give them the benefit of the doubt? It had to be devastating. Losing their coach is a big deal! A really big deal. Especially when they are athletes away from home (out of state) and the coach actually is who they look to often to make decisions. I would definately not say that they had the support of the community. Not initially.
I’m with you, thank goodness they had the support of their family. And I have also seen very strong families who have a child that strays down the wrong path. We don’t know that the wrongfull accuser here didn’t have a supporting family. To rush to that conclusion with no evidence of it is not appropriate. People assume just because she became a stripper she didn’t have a good home life, but I’ve seen great families with kids who become drug addicts, and then turn to prostitution. You just don’t know.
dd
So, JohnD chooses not to apologize to Kim (#155) for openly manipulating her words to suit his agenda.
Now, JohnD throws this cream pie at Redbeard: “Bu tthat does not change the fact that, with respect, you are demonstrably wrong in your generalizing/sterotyping. Double-irony considerng the nature of your accusation/statement.”
“Demonstrable: capable of being demonstrated.”
Have at it, JohnD, prove your point.
I still contend that you are trifling with the progress of important dialog between and within the races. That appears to me to be race baiting.
If you have some special, profound wisdom to inform this discussion, lay it out. But your shoot and run technique is not the act of the gadfly, it is more akin to the gnat in the tear duct.
We are all learners here. Educate us. Please!
dd;
Thanks for your comments. I am always relieved when folks respond to what I actually state.
Humorously/unbelievably, Angel is still yammering about the fact that family is very important which was acknowledged from the get-go and was never the focus of my original disagreement with him.
jan – I know I’ve been reading it. I could tell what you meant.
Have you read anything about the accusers family that leads you to believe she had a horrible family life? I hadn’t. So I was surprised at the conclusion that she did.
dd
dd;
I actually know nothing about the accuser’s family other than watching interviews by her cousin which I did not take all that seriously.
I can only note that it is beyond annoying to “entertain” a gnat in my tear duct…:)
I have never noted Redbeard indulging in racially based generalizations and am actually not sure why it has thus been alleged.
By the way, speaking of generalizations, have you ever noticed how often one hears that America is a racist country by the same folks that eschew “racially based” generalizations while concluding that only those at the upper echelons of the power structure can be racist. When I have asked what this actually means, I have been referred to the post modern notion that minorities cannot be racist as they lack the essential power to be racist.
In essence, many of the same folks who condemn racial generalizations turn around and say that white America is fundamentally racist.
I don’t get it.
Note: I am not referring to John D. as I don’t know if he subscribes to the post modern notion above. Nor do I know if he thinks that America is a racist country.
“I have never noted Redbeard indulging in racially based generalizations and am actually not sure why it has thus been alleged.”
I have NOT accused Redbeard of ‘racially based generalizations. Please re-read my comments. The three (conservative) racially based generalizations (about ‘the Black Community’) I quoted in 246 were an attempt to show that Redbeard is false in his thinking that only liberals have use for the term ‘Black Community’.
The fact that he accuses only ‘liberals’ of viewing black people as ‘the Borg’ by using the term ‘Black Community’ is just proof that he is stereotyping liberals on racial grounds. I never mentioned race, in fact I said I agreed with Redbeard that the term ‘Black Community’ is divisive.
Sheesh.
No I don’t think America is ‘fundamentally racist’. It’s obviously an enormous ‘problem’ in the political sphere though, and as long as we keep hearing “but it’s the liberals/conservatives” (delete as applicabl) who are the real racists/maipulators of ‘blacks’ it will stay this way.
John D.
Clarification noted and accepted.
Question: Now, while it is certainly true that conservatives generalize about race, would that make it UNTRUE that liberals do the same thing or do it more? I didn’t see that Redbeard said that ONLY liberals do it but rather that liberals do it. I guess I am not sure what the bone of contention is.
Obviously, one can NEVER make a blanket statement about ANY group with 100% accuracy, but for conversational short-hand sake, it is often the case that one makes statements based upon high percentages in a group, particularly when the group identification is based upon ideologies, such as conservatism and liberalism.
I do think is is fair to say that liberals are more “group identified” than conservatives, though I am open to compelling evidence that this is not the case.
Jan or whoever you are today,
I really don’t think posting the word “Yeah” constitutes yammering. But, what did I expect?
I really don’t think posting the word “Yeah†constitutes yammering – angel
Methinks thou doth assume too much as I was not merely referring to ONLY your last post, but I shall rephrase my statement to dd.
dd;
After I stated numerous times that family was very crucial, Angel persisted in yammering about the immportance of family. Note that I am not merely speaking of Angel’s last post, but rather about many of the more than 50 posts by Angel on this thread.
Is that better, Angel?
Jan,
The reason people say America is a racist country is because we built a beautiful system of democracy, then closed the loophole that would have allowed Blacks to enjoy the freedoms granted by God, not man by declaring them a fraction of a person. It soon became untenable to continue with this inconsistency with the “mission statement” of America to allow slavery to continue. But, at that point all the lies and stereotypes that were created to justify slavery in the first place were already cemented in the national psyche. The fact that the architects of this happened to be white is an accident of history. They could have easily been black. But, that is the way is went. So, when that statement is made, it’s because we had a blind spot when it came to our own failings.
After slavery and Reconstruction, we (blacks) were going about the business of being citizens, but barriers were continually put in our way. Now, things are much better. But, this inability to acknowledge the past sticks in the craw of a lot of black Americans. A lot of us are not telling you to personally be responsible for anything, but when the topic is even broached, whites get upset. How are we ever going to make sure that we never repeat our tragic mistakes if we don’t even want to talk about them openly?
Jan,
You don’t owe me any explanations for anything. It’s clear what’s up with you. So, say whatever you want about me. I really don’t care.
But why are you here? Are you yammering too, Jan?
You really have a lack of civility.
Angel;
If a lack of civility is now defined as expressing disagreement with the contents of statements without using invective or personal attacks, then I am guilty as charged.
If a lack of civility is now defined as using an accurate term such as yammering to describe a conversational dynamic which resorts to non-responsive perseveration despite proferred evidence, then I am guilty as charged.
But for the sake of everyone on this thread, let’s drop this pointless inanity and allow others to get onto more substantive dialogue.
To me, the only person that needs to apologize to the Duke players is Mike Nifong. He mislead – deliberately or not – many people into believing the Lacrosse players were guilty based on “the evidence”.
As tragic as the story is, Nifong is the only one who really needs to apologize to them. Don’t get mad at figures like Sharpton and Jackson because they trusted the words of the prosecutor, who was sworn to uphold the law. What I see, which many blacks have been challenging for years, is how the American justice system is not always fair and balanced.
With the Lacrosse players, we continue to see the fault lines in the American criminal justice system. Instead of bashing Sharpton and Jackson, let’s fine tune the American justice system. That way, people won’t have to hear their mouths.
http://terrencesays.blogspot.com/2007/04/don-imus-song-poll.html
“Yammering” is disagreement? No, it’s a rude characterization and you know it or at least you should. You can disagree with any post you want. That’s not the issue. And as far as the number or post I have on this thread, that’s up to our host. I don’t see any objections from her so…
Angel, slavery in the United States of America lasted less than 90 years (about 78 years under the Constitution) before that great evil was abolished.
There was no United States of America for the first 157 years of North American slavery, nor for the thousands of years of slavery prior to that.
Any “cementing” of slavery in anyone’s mind was done long before our founding fathers were born. Indeed, it was our founding fathers who set in motion the radical ideas that eventually resulted in the abolishing of involuntary servitude in order to fully implement the promise of the United States.
And the reasons all this is called “history” is that it happened in the past. So did Jim Crow, who is deader than a doornail these days.
Angel states: “The reason people say America is a racist country is because we built a beautiful system of democracy, then closed the loophole that would have allowed Blacks to enjoy the freedoms granted by God, not man by declaring them a fraction of a person. It soon became untenable to continue with this inconsistency with the “mission statement†of America to allow slavery to continue. But, at that point all the lies and stereotypes that were created to justify slavery in the first place were already cemented in the national psyche. The fact that the architects of this happened to be white is an accident of history. They could have easily been black. But, that is the way is went. So, when that statement is made, it’s because we had a blind spot when it came to our own failings.â€
1.) There were free blacks all over the North and throughout the South as well during the entire period in which slavery was legal. They owned property, ran businesses, had professions and held office.
2.) Oberlin Collegiate Institute, now Oberlin College, was founded in 1833 for blacks only, but in 1835 it opened its admission to all and was the first college in America to do so. In 1837, it admitted women, again becoming the first college in America to do so. Oberlin is located in Ohio, near Cleveland.
3.) Blacks were never, ever considered “a fraction of a person.†There was a battle over how representatives to the House of Representatives should be apportioned among the states. The slave holding states wanted to count their slaves as part of their population. A compromise was reached which permitted slave states to include 3/5ths of the total number of slaves as part of their population for the purpose of apportioning seats in the House of Representatives.
Free blacks were counted in every state as a part of the population.
4.) There are black families throughout the states who trace their families back to early colonial days and their family history never included anyone who was a slave. Some of those families held indentured servants and slaves, as well.
5.) It is not an accident of history that the founding fathers were white. That is an oft repeated myth that, I suspect, is supposed to make people feel good. With Africa being the greatest center of black populations, we would have to examine the likelihood of black Africans setting forth, colonizing, prospering and then creating the democratic government. The fact is, this did not happen here or anywhere else in the world. It did not happen in Africa. It would have been a true accident of history if blacks had created the United States.
6.) Your opening words are curious: “ The reason people say America is a racist country is because we built a beautiful system of democracy……â€
Only some people would say America is a racist country. More people would say America WAS a racist country because of segregation, Jim Crow laws and slavery.
7.) “….lies and stereotypes that were created to justify slavery in the first place were already cemented in the national psyche.â€
Forgive me, but that is pure psychobabble. “National psyche†is no different from “black community.†They are meaningless phrases meant to mean whatever the listener wants them to mean.
So far as your thumbnail sketch of our past is concerned, I am afraid that it is not only inaccurate, it is also extremely revealing of a willful bias.
Angel;
Your retorts appear to be anything but civil. Perhaps you should practice what you think you deserve of others…
Duke Lacrosse Team Celebrates Dropping of Charges With Big Win
Durham — It’s a special weekend for the Duke lacrosse team, who beat the defending national champions days after three former players were exonerated of sexual assault charges.
It’s also Duke alumni weekend, which meant fans poured in to watch the match, with the Duke team winning in overtime 8 to 7 against Virginia. Students and administrators said they’re not only celebrating one victory but two, as the team is no longer on the defensive.
“I hope it’s a burden off of their shoulders and the cloud has been lifted and we can all move on,†said Duke athletic director Joe Alleva.
The desire to move into the future is something that most people on campus seemed to be ready to do.
“People have been waiting for this,†said student Adam Rothschild. “I think most people thought they were innocent, so it’s just kind of feeling good.â€
The Duke lacrosse team has been in the national spotlight for more than a year, ever since Collin Finnerty, Reade Seligman, and Dave Evans were accused of rape by exotic dancer Crystal Mangum after an off-campus party. On Wednesday, state Attorney General Roy Cooper dropped all charges against three men, saying they were innocent of the accusations.
While students said they’re happy the case is over, many are still wearing blue wristbands with the numbers of Finnerty, Seligman and Evans. They said the former students and the team still needs their support.
“Even though it’s done, those kids will really never be the same, I think,†said student Natalie Linsalata.
“The program was kind of in question after what happened last year,†said student Ben Franks.
Last season was cut short, and the players were cut out any chances at a national championship.
“Hopefully they’ll have a great season to compensate a little bit,†Linsalata said.
The stadium was packed with fans Saturday afternoon. However, there was no sign of Finnerty, Evans or Seligmann.
Source: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1273288/
Correction: Angel, Your retorts appear to be anything but civil. Perhaps you should practice what you think you deserve from others…
“The stadium was packed with fans Saturday afternoon. However, there was no sign of Finnerty, Evans or Seligmann.”
President Richard Brodhead dressed in his academic robes led the cheering crowd in a rousing chorus of “For They Are Jolly Good Fellows” as the Group of 88 accompanied him on their Kaazoos. Everyone then joined in a group hug.
Helio,
I guess that all makes it okay, then.
That sounds like being counted as a fraction of a person to me.
When somebody says that someone is “yammering” it is rude.
Description of “yammering,” according to Merriam-Webster:
1 a: to utter repeated cries of distress or sorrow b : WHIMPER
2: to utter persistent complaints : WHINE
: to talk persistently or volubly and often loudly.
An accurate description in my opinion…
280 posts, and I feel like we’ve been driving with one wheel in the sand. Sheesh.
Redbeard… I feel your pain!!!!
Redbeard,
Actually, it is the tire and not the wheel that contacts the surface. Also, if you are making forward motion, you would have to have two tires in the sand. It is possible to have one tire in the sand for a moment, but……………sorry, my cat needs scratching.
Tate,
I can understand if you sense the pain, but unless you and Redbeard are conjoined twins, I do not see how you could actually feel it. Of, course, I do not mean to offend you if you and Redbeard are actually conjoined twins. If that is the case, maybe jan can explain it.
We will all feel the same pain when La Shawn gives each of us a collective spanking.
spank: to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand (m-w.com)
Helio;
I feel your pain!!!
Tate and Redbeard as conjoined twins are absolutely beyond any verbal “sleight of hand” that I possess so I can only conjecture that they are unusually empathetic.
Will the real Helio please stand up?
I didn’t ask any of you to respond to my posts. Your choice. If you have something better to do, go do it.
Angel;
Speaking for myself, I do not feel “constrained” to respond to your posts (though it is often amusing to do so), so no need to worry about whether I have something better to do.
I will let Tate, Redbeard, and Helio speak for themselves, though it would be my guess that they did not need to be informed about their exercise of “choice” in their blogosphere responses.
Naturally, I could be wrong and will examine any compellingly substantive posts to the contrary. Emotive responses need not apply.
Careful, Angel… You are showing your childish, bad attitude again…
Angel @ 277: “That sounds like being counted as a fraction of a person to me.”
Have you ever sat down and thot thru the dynamics of counting slaves for representation?
If slaves were counted as 1/1, either slavery would have existed long past 1860s or the South would have surely seceded. To whit, Douglas rather than Lincoln would have won the presidency.
Check it out and do the math:
Congressional Apportionment–Historical Perspective
1st US Census (1790)
If anything, if the Founding Fathers couldn’t persuade slavers to freely afford the slaves the enumerated rights, then they ensured that slavery would eventually crumble with the 3/5th rule.
Put another way, would you rather that South Carolina, where slaves made up almost half the population have 6 US Representatives or 8 Reps, vs Massachusetts’ 12 Reps, with no slaves? That’s also a big part of the reason for efforts to prevent new states from becoming slave-states in order to prevent them from stacking their clout.
And don’t forget that little matter of the Electoral College.
Thus, I would argue that the act of counting slaves as 3/5ths actually made them whole in the long run.
A little more critical thinking and less yammering goes a long way.
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