Check out my latest Washington Examiner column, where I expand on “Super Tuesday of Equality” and quote Shelby Steele’s impressions of an affirmative action debate.
Once all states eliminate government preferences based on race, problems like the ones addressed in this post will be relics of the past, at least at public colleges. Read on…
There’s a whole lot of griping going on about black immigrants benefiting from race preference policies, which are supposed to be “restitution for the harm done by American slavery and segregation.†Under this definition, only black American descendants of black American slaves qualify for preferential treatment.
A couple of months ago I linked to an article in The Chronicle of Higher Education about a study titled, “Black Immigrants and Black Natives Attending Selective Colleges and Universities in the United States.†It seems that black immigrants and “multiracial†blacks are overrepresented at “selective†colleges and universities, while native (meaning, all-the-way-black?) blacks are underrepresented.
This, in the eyes of black race preferences supporters, is a problem.
According to the study, black immigrants score “significantly higher” on their SATs. Oddly enough, the higher scores don’t translate into better academic performances once in college. The study’s author attributes this to black immigrants choosing more difficult majors than native blacks.
Diversity-obsessed schools can kill two birds with one stone: fill unofficial race quotas (Shhh…) and increase the number of minority students with higher SAT scores by admitting more non-native, as opposed to native, blacks.
Some “African Americans” are very territorial with skin color privileges. Via Discriminations, I read about a 1970s-era black graduate of Mount Holyoke College who is a bit peeved because of the number of black African and Caribbean students at her alma mater and the “downturn in admissions†of black Americans. (Source)
Are race preferences about “correcting†past injustices or increasing the number of black faces on campus? And what’s the deal with the whole multiracial thing? What does that mean? Biracial? A quarter black? A quarter white? One-sixteenth black? Or is a visual assessment required? Is the one-drop rule now part of admissions polices? Questions, questions…
Since the previous questions are somewhat rhetorical, let me pose a few “answerable†ones for you. While these questions are directed to all readers, I especially want to hear from blacks who support race pref…I mean, affirmative action:
1) Adoma Adjei-Brenyah, president of the African Students Association at Columbia University, doesn’t like the descendants of slaves distinction: “If you’re going to make a slavery case, people from the Caribbean were also displaced and enslaved. How do you begin to differentiate?”
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
2) Says Jason Lee, Harvard Black Students Association: “There’s a historical sense that black Americans are disrespected by immigrants. Parents don’t want their kids to play with them, don’t want bad habits rubbing off on them. There’s a bit of tension there.”
Why do you believe there is discernable tension between black Americans and black immigrants?
3) From the study: “To white observers, black immigrants seem more polite, less hostile, more solicitous, and ‘easier to get along with.’ Native blacks are perceived in precisely the opposite fashion.”
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
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I’m glad you brought this up Lashawn. I’m a black immigrant who faced more discriminiation from black Americans than White Americans. It is true, Black immigrants are more likely to intergrate with whites than black Americans.
It’s mean to say this, but I always feel uncomfortable with Black Americans, than with Black Carribbeans or other Africans. Why? Because when I moved here, the hositility I faced going to a pre-dominantly black school in Queens, NY was horrible.
I was different, didn’t talk slang, didn’t dress baggy, didn’t have cornrows. I don’t know if they were threatened or saw me as a sell out or just didn’t see me as part of the “gang”. I just didn’t fit it.
There’s a tendency for Black Americans to make fun of Haitians and Africans.
The irony is that they would make fun of Africans, yet when you presented the facts to them that “You’re ancestors were from Africa, too”, they strongly refuted.
Yet, Black Immigrant from Africa and Carribbean tend to be more successful economically, socially and even psychogolically more confident (I have no statistics but from my experience and what I seen)
They don’t seem to carry a burden or a baggage.
One thing i notice is how quick a black American is able to notice a Black immigrant. There’s special codes.
In pre-dominantly black working environment, I faced the hostility, tension, and ridicule from day 1. While, in pre-dominantly white working enviornment, I felt at ease, welcomed and appreciated.
White Americans tend to be more receptive to black immigrants, even in terms of interracial romance. (Again, no Statistics, just observations), but some of my best and closest friends here in America, are whites. Once, an older lady invented me to dinner at her husband’s house. Her husband said how I was “different” than Black Americans, I had manner, was courteous, was polite, was presentable.
It was indeed patronizing, but the older man probably was speaking from his own observation. and he isn’t the first white person who told me this.
Now, I’m not self hating. I’m so proud of being African and get overly excited when I go back home, there’s no place like home.
I think Carribbean and Africans live in pre-dominantly black society. Despite, the issues these countries face in develeopping. Socially, they live in a “black” world (From the top guy to the guy all the way down) not in a world that is pre-dominantly white.
So, the “black is beautiful” and appreciating blackness and feeling confident and empowered is there.
In terms of moral, values, Carribbean and African societies are very strict. From the family order, the respect to the elders. The kids knowing their place in a household, the duties, the structure, the order.
I find so much in common with Carribbeans in terms of spanking at home and in school which is part of the education. There’s a difference between abusing and disciplining.
Our stories are very similar. In these societies, a grown up is a grown up. I can play on the block, and if I curse, the neighbor has every right to reprimand me and my parents will side iwth the neighbor.
The collectivism allows people to grow in a society where they know that someone is always watching, parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents, older sibblings, neighbor. It’s a sign of love and caring.
The fact that if I see my neighbor’s kid do something unallowable I’m albe to reprimand and correct him.
The previous black generations pre-1965 seemed to be like this, very structured, ordered and family-centric.
In many African societies, My aunt is like my mother. I call her mom, my cousins are my brothers and sisters. Some older generations even hate using the words “cousing” or “uncle/aunt”, because the bond is strong and has to remain strong.
There’s no such thing as a Las Vegas wedding. When couples want to marry, there’s three ceremony. There’s the traditional dowry ceremony where the groom’s entire extended family comes to ask for the bride. There’s the wedding (western style) and there’s the post wedding where the families unite to become one family.
There’s so much more and I’m proud. So many black immigrants come with these values, traditions,structures. That’s why many black immigrant parents don’t want their kids to associate with Black Americans, fear of loosing out their upbringing.
People make fun, ridicule Africa or are turned off by it, it’s not what many people think. We’re as civilized as as developed (infrastructure) as many as the western societies. But it doesn’t bother me, because I’m proud of where I come from.
I’ve been afraid to bring this up, but I’ve been asking the question if it can be argued that black society before 1964 was also better. There was a common goal, freedom, there was unity, working together and keeping what’s precious and priceless in a world of injustices (The family unit and community)
My experience would coincide with the results from the study, “black immigrants seem more polite, less hostile, more solicitous, and ‘easier to get along with.’ Native blacks are perceived in precisely the opposite fashion.†Immigrants are thankful to be in America studying, they are thankful for the opportunity to better their lives and those of their family. They see education as a privilege not a four year hedonistic vacation. There is not the, “you owe me” mentality or the “its my right” mentality that pervades both white and black native students.
I think Jason Lee might be taking a martyr’s position in saying that black American’s are disrespected by immigrant students. It may be that immigrant students aren’t actively disrespecting native black students but rather can’t find anything to respect in the spoiled native students who have opportunity for education and take it for granted. The tension is the incredulity of the immigrant for the seeming disregard for education that sometimes pervades the black community (Why go to college when I can go to the NBA, NFL or Music Scene?)
Lashawn I read the article in the Washington Examiner, great job.
This is not an answer but another question.
How do we ‘fix’ the problem? Legislation will remove the quotas, but the situation then must be addressed in the schools.
Our schools show that favoritism based on race exist( or we wouldn’t cater to all the languages)
In fact we do the same thing in society(DMV etc)
I follow all your post on these subjects and I truly wonder.
My in-laws are Mexicans who legally came here, and they demanded that their children learn the language and become proud of their new country.
All of my husbands brothers and sisters have college degrees. None were pampered because they couldn’t speak English, but my husbands parents instilled in the kids the understanding that to succeed they must work, not expect handouts.
Forgive me for going on, I just think that the solution will take many facets for it to be fixed.
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
If such efforts are going to exist, then I agree that they should likewise benefit. I think that making up for past injustices is more an excuse as opposed to trying to increase representation of those who are unrepresented (whatever the perceived benefit of that is). Non-American blacks who attend school here typically will remain in the country and their children overwhelmingly tend to assimilate into the black American subculture to a strong degree, yet are less likely to pick up the more destructive habits. So the black community benefits.
Why do you believe there is discernable tension between black Americans and black immigrants?
That is hard for me to answer since I really haven’t observed this happening. I have read about it and I think that much of it relates to what part of the country one lives. What I’ve observed is black Americans looking down on certain habits common to African cultures, but I have not noticed any real tension.
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
Easier to get along with black immigrants? Generally yes. I would imagine that many black American women often find it hard to get along with African men due to their strong tendency toward chauvinism.
Easier to relate to? No.
I’m really not understanding what they mean by “multiracial blacks”. Most black Americans are multiracial.
I guess I can answer some of these questions. My father is from the Caribbean…I don’t believe that the tension is one-way, with the foreign blacks just being negative against the native American blacks for no reason. Since in my family it was never an issue, I always wondered if the complaints foreigners had were just a cop-out, until my dad told me of his experiences when he first came here, and his experiences at home when black tourists would visit. The bottom line of what he experienced is that black Americans can be just as intolerant and bigoted toward other blacks when said blacks have an accent.
Some of it is insularity, I think. I’ve met American blacks who really seem to think that activities have a race. There are “white activities†and “black activities.†It’s fine—but stupid—if they limit themselves that way. It’s annoying when they try to limit others though, and I think that’s where some of the tension comes in.
Try this: “You listen to that music? You do this? You do that? Black people don’t do this!†There was a PBS special back in the 90’s called “Black Is,” about that very behavior, in which a black filmmaker did a documentary about that very mentality. The problem here is that foreign blacks don’t have that mentality (in my experience), so you’ll get a clash right there. My father, for example, said his own father loved listening to country music. I don’t get on well with people who think in such limited terms, so I try to avoid them. However, others won’t always take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff, so you get tension.
I don’t find either group, native vs. foreign, more or less open-minded or mannerly. Where my dad’s from, it’s common for people to say “yes ma’am and yes sir.” I’m positive any black American from the south, or was raised by southerners, can relate to that.
What you get depends on where you are. If you, like many immigrants, end up in a ghetto-type environment, you’re sure to encounter negative behaviors. I’m still irritated that I spent my whole childhood in a town where blacks were only 2 percent of the population (really!), and only thrice heard the word n—-r (omitted in case of filter)—in one instance addressed to a white friend of mine—but then I moved to a big city in college and had to deal with ignorant blacks who used that word as though it’s my name, or someone else’s.
To be clear, I’m glad hearing that word was a rare occasion growing up, I’m just irritated I heard it so often from black people later on. I guarantee you those same people calling each other by the n-word will have the nerve to complain about immigrants calling them that, too. They don’t stop to think that they taught the foreigners to use that word. They just think the foreigners are being racist, so you get tension.
I suspect there might be a difference in relations when the immigrants start off in a middle class area vs. immigrants starting off in a lower class neighborhood. I suspect the negativity is the result of a values clash when people with get-up-and-go are encountering people who not only lack that quality, but are also hostile to the very idea of ambition and a work ethic.
My enterprising American uncle complained about that very thing. He can go to one side of town and encounter black Americans willing to work for him for a temporary job, and have them show up and do the job (it’s the kind we supposedly need illegal immigrants to do). Then he can go to another side of town where they just want the money and are outraged he expects them to work. Both sides of that town are poor, but the values aren’t the same. I don’t know if studies address that, but it seems pertinent enough that they ought to.
I’ll have to write about schools in another post, this one is long enough.
“To white observers, black immigrants seem more polite, less hostile, more solicitous, and ‘easier to get along with.’ Native blacks are perceived in precisely the opposite fashion.â€
I think this has to do more with the typical immigrant attitude than anything else. Most immigrants, be they white or black or somewhere in between, come to this country because it provides opportunities and freedoms that their native country doesn’t have.
A large portion of people born in the U.S., regardless of color, seem to carry an entitlement mentality. By divine right of birth in America we are owed something, or so says the attitude of millions of Americans.
You’re airing some dirty laundry today, LB!
In my experience as a black American woman going to a black college with native born blacks and black immigrants, I really didn’t have many issues with black immigrants (meaning blacks from the continent of Africa or from the Caribbean or UK, etc). I do think that a lot of immigrants have a bit of a superiority complex of sorts but a lot of the time I find it extends to all native born Americans, not just blacks. Immigrants tend to come from cultures that are a lot more conservative than the secular nature of the US.
I have had many conversations with my black immigrant friends who sometimes look down their noses at native born blacks and remind them that
1) they come from a country often times where everyone from the richest to the poorest looked just like them and they often made the choice to come to the US. A lot of times native born blacks don’t have the same type of pride that I see in immigrants.
2) a lot of times they are the best and the brightest of their country and as such it’s not surprising that they would come to the US and be successful.
3) second and third generation black immigrants often times become extremely acclimated to American culture just like any other immigrant group and we all know that some aspects of American culture are very problematic.
As far as immigrants being more polite or easier to ‘deal with’, I think it is all relative. Some of the most arrogant people I’ve ever encountered are Nigerians. I’ve even talked to folks from other countries in Africa, such as Ghanaians who find them to be the same way.
I don’t have a problem with non-native blacks being able to access higher education just as anyone else can, even if race preferences are involved. Native born blacks have to step their game up.
Personally, as an HBCU graduate, I wish black students would stop going where they really aren’t wanted or supported. Sometimes, I think these elite schools admit students and don’t lend the proper support. I went to school with several folks who started at U of Texas at Austin or SMU or Texas A&M who finished college with me.
As an aside: I often wish that those who are against race preferences and often say that that the problem lies within our public schools (which I agree with) would step up to the plate and advocate for change in the schools as well as do some time in the trenches to affect changes in the lives of the children. Not every child has compentent parenting, not every parent has the ability or means to homeschool or send their child to private school.
Question 1: If we can’t make a scientific case for the very existence of “black” humans being a separate race, how can we ever develop a subset of blacks within blacks? If a school is hide bound (pun intended) to up the number of black faces on campus, of course would “nonnative” be part of the equation.
Perhaps we should return to days of state schools for blacks, but we could add the wrinkle of challenging them to seek out other than black students who are “natives” and who would have difficulty meeting traditional entrance requirements.
Question 2: North America holds about 5% of the population of the world. The black population of the United States is just under 13% . Obviously, “native” blacks are a very small pool against the world pool of blacks. For the most part, “foreign” blacks get to the US by plan and effort. It seems likely that they are better equipped in attitude and personal strengths to succeed than many they left behind. It also seems likely that they are not inclined to get at the end of “native” black line and wait their turn at bat.
It is human nature when we are “stewing in our own juices” to look around and see unfairness everywhere. Why wouldn’t a successful “nonnative” be a great source of irritation to one who hasn’t found the pathway to personal success?
3) Absolutely, in a vast majority of the cases. Since my family is so “multiracial” we don’t have to count anyone out except the occasional Laplander, race in this tribe of amalgamated, educated, “successful” individuals is mostly a topic of wonderment. Our friends come in all stripes, but “multiracial” people tend to “get it” more than the “this is my race” ones.
I love Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Stephen Carter, etc. because they have figured out that skin color is like shoe size and the width of the beam: it’s just part of your equipment.
Tyrian Purple said:I suspect there might be a difference in relations when the immigrants start off in a middle class area vs. immigrants starting off in a lower class neighborhood. I suspect the negativity is the result of a values clash when people with get-up-and-go are encountering people who not only lack that quality, but are also hostile to the very idea of ambition and a work ethic.
I think this is a very important point that needs to be discussed further. Economic class is a very important aspect. The further you go up the ladder, the more apt one is to be educated, come from a more stable homelife etc. I think if you compared native born and black immigrants who are middle class and above perhaps some of the disparities would diminish.
And let’s not get it twisted. I don’t think folks should coming on the thread and start bashing native born black Americans because that’s what I’m reading. Black immigrants suffer racism just like we do. Their children make bad choices like any other group of people. All black Americans aren’t horrible people. So let’s not paint all with the same broad brush.
#7 Tiffany writes: “As an aside: I often wish that those who are against race preferences and often say that that the problem lies within our public schools (which I agree with) would step up to the plate and advocate for change in the schools as well as do some time in the trenches to affect changes in the lives of the children. Not every child has compentent parenting, not every parent has the ability or means to homeschool or send their child to private school.”
Talk about dirty laundry! Planned Parenthood has been at this for a long time by seeking to kill the baby in the womb. Of course, they would never admit it, but their offices never seem to be placed in the subdivisions around the country club.
Malnourished black infants and children are the cause of our woes in the black population. By malnourished I mean poorly fed, poorly loved, poorly tended, poorly cultured, poorly motivated, and on and on. The liberal solution favors more money, money, more money. It is a plan to pay someone else to fix the mess.
Since I came out of an orphanage, I have a particular bias for taking the child out of a destructive environment and doing the best for him you can do in a sane group environment. I never had any complaints with Hillary’s “It takes a Village” admonition. But most of us know what the “village” looks like and that is no place to raise a child. As Pogo once said: “We have met the enemy and he is us.”
Even Schoolbus Nagin tried to sneak the truth into the equation when he attempted to block the return to New Orleans of the worst human debris.
The problem is not the schools per se. These kids do not arrive on Old Yellow ready and eager to learn. If that were the case, the schools would be so at fault that we should burn them down and burn the teachers at the stake.
Some years ago, a principal in a Baltimore school got in deep doo doo for getting her young flowers a NORVASC implant. She knew the score and she was attacking the problem head on. She knew better than to have an open forum discussion first. And, of course, she lost her job. (Alas, I guess I agree.)
The only solutions I can think of for the cultural depravity and social pathologies rife in some of our neighborhoods are neither democratic nor sensitive to the wishes and feelings of the “adults†in the equation.
I am not painting with a broad brush here. We have plenty of places across the United States where blacks are flouishing. We have plenty of excellent black students in fine colleges. But the overall sociology of blacks in general is not a pretty picture. That is what I am addressing above.
I think there’s a certain pride of oneself that results from being born and being brought up in an all black society.
To the one who said about Nigerians and Ghana, I agree too.
See, I’m from the French speaking part of Africa and there’s a huge difference from the English Africa in terms of the remains of colonial legacy.
For instance, I get along and can easily recognize another French Speaking African whether it’s from Senegal, Congo, Benin, Morrocco or Algeria as well as French Black Carribbean, Haitians, Martiniquan, Guadeloupeean or Guyanese. Even if we don’t know each other, if we get stuck together somewhere, we’ll bond like we were best friends for life. The French language somewhat unites us. despite coming from different cultures. I’ve experienced it many times.
When I first moved here, anytime I ran into a black immigrant who spoke french and even still today, there’s an automatic bond that develops, even if we come from two different cultures.
I don’t have that experience with Nigerians, Kenyans or Jamaicans. I might run into a Nigerian and be happy to run into a fellow African, but the connection or bond that I would have had had I ran into a Senegalese or a Morroccan isn’t the same. The former is the product of English Colonialism and the latter of French Colonialism.
Same with Carribbeans, It’s easier for me to bond and familiarize with French Carribbeans than English Carribbeans.
So, in analyzing all this, maybe the language factor could also play a role in non-English Black immigrants and Black natives.
But to me, the thing that would annoy me was the relunctance of Black Natives to acknowledge their African past while they were mocking me because I was African, calling me all sorts of backward “jungle boy” types of name. It’s like “wait a minute, technically you’re from there too.”
Linking this to diversity. I’m 100% pro diversity. But I’ve been questioning.
Do groups of people get along better when they live separately and only moderately come into contact.
I’ve read that line everywhere, when a black person moves into an all white neighborhood, he is welcome, when too many people begin moving in, they start to be seen as a threat and vice versa.
In Europe, I have found people from the Scandinavian region to be more open and tolerant than people from France, UK, and Spain (big immigration population in these countries).
People either accept or reject what’s different. They may accept out of curiosity and amazement or wanting to experience something “new” or they might reject out of fear of something that’s not in the comfort zone. Or they might start to accept what’s different, but when that different becomes the norm, they start to reject it.
Would we all get along if we all just lived in our own corners and interacted moderately. I don’t know.
Again, I’m pro-diversity, but I’ve lived in homogeneous setting and heterogeneous settings and at times the former comes across as a more stable setting.
When I first moved in, whenever
I think that it really comes down to culture and history. African-americans and white americans have a history of racial tension which continues today. And I think that they bring that tension and past history when they come together.
In the case of black immigrants, they don’t have the stories, the experiences and the racial history that black and white americans have with each other, and thus can probably have more favorable relationships as opposed to black americans.
Case in point, my black american friends who live here in Paris feel that white french people are more accepting and easier to get along with than white americans; but if you ask a french person who is black, he/she tends to have the opposite feeling about french white people.
Gerard touched on this a little.
So, I think you have to factor the country’s racial history with the groups.
I am not black or white but rather both… to speak in general terms, I have noticed a difference between black Americans and blacks from other countries. Background: my father comes from a sort of “Carribean” country (but is on the mainland of one of the Americas). He is mixed Black and American Indian (but appears black). My mother, from a Latin American country, is mixed White and American Indian (but appears white). I do not appear Black, nor do I appear white – I suppose I appear American Indian. To keep things simple, I call myself American. I was born and raised in the US, and Old Glory is the only flag I fly.
It is hard for me to generalize about people from any group, because I take people very much on an individual level. I have to. Because of my appearance and because of the way I speak and dress, I’ve never been able to fit in with the norms and stereotypes of any “ethnic group”. I suppose if people were to name it they would say I “act white”. I think I “act like a native born American”, because that is what I am, but that is another discussion.
Anyway, because I’ve never felt a part of any one racial group, I feel I have the perspective of an outsider. And from that perspective I think I can say with some certainty that yes, black Americans and blacks from other countries seem to have different general characteristics. I have found blacks from other countries generally easier to get along with than black Americans, and generally have fewer hangups than black Americans. Blacks from other countries also seem to come farther than black Americans, generally. I have friends of all races, including blacks from other countries, but I have no black American friends. And it’s not really for lack of trying. It’s just that they seem particuarly insular and generally don’t seem to trust anyone that comes from outside their own culture.
(This is not to say that other groups don’t do this as well. In fact because of my background I’ve felt at least partially rejected by almost every group out there, except for the group generally labeled “hispanic”. However, when you take it down to the individual level, these generalizations break down. Hopefully one day, I will be able to make black American friends.)
However, I think that groups should learn from each other, instead of shutting each other out. Black immigrants have a lot to teach american blacks, and vice versa. Pitting the two groups against the other doesn’t really accomplish much more than creating divisions the community in general does not need.
PS: If you ever have time to talk about it, I wonder what you would think of the following article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/01/arts/01sout.html
I think this is a very important point that needs to be discussed further. Economic class is a very important aspect. The further you go up the ladder, the more apt one is to be educated, come from a more stable homelife etc. I think if you compared native born and black immigrants who are middle class and above perhaps some of the disparities would diminish.
Good point. It is important to realize that immigrants to America are typically the cream of the crop of those nations. As a former teacher, I recall a great difference between typical legal immigrants and refugees. The children of refugees were much more of a problem because those were lower class uneducated people who got the opportunity to immigrate.
Also, so much of perceived black identity is derived from lower class blacks. Black immigrants have problems in low income areas because ignorant people are common to those areas. A middle or upper class predominantly black American community is generally a very comfortable place for black immigrants.
La Shawn:
Where is the ACLU?
Latin American Illegals are hiding in churches, with the full blessing of pastors, yet the ACLU and the Feds – the same that don’t allow prayer at high school games, have taken a “hands off” stance “out of respect for religion”.
Is this “Leftist respect?” – but no respect for conservative causes.
That’s what I figured. It’s not a given that people who “look alike” are going to get along. People with the shared values, on the other hand, are a different matter. The intra-black tensions are no different than the internal tensions of other racial groups (Japanese vs. Korean, French vs. Brit).
Paige reminded me of a theory I have: American blacks, as she said, will get along better with native white French than blacks from former French colonies will, and apparently foreign blacks get along with white Americans better than some black Americans will. I suspect that similar is true in certain other countries, and I think she’s right that history is the reason why.
Relatives who have lived there go gaga about how wonderful Germany is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Turkish people didn’t share the sentiment. I suspect in each case it’s because one is familiar (and formerly subjugated/or occupy a low status), the other is exotic (or never subjugated/and meets on equal terms; no baggage). Does that make sense? In other words, some of the immigrants’ experiences with regards to racial acceptance/tension are probably inevitable.
This is totally off topic but: The woman in the picture has amazing hair!!!
It’s a stock photo. She’s fabulous, isn’t she?
I mean really she is. Man, her hair is beautiful…It’s humid here today, so I am having a slightly bad hair day…LOL!!!
1)Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
I am against all race based preferences.
2)Why do you believe there is discernable tension between black Americans and black immigrants?
LaShawn please post a synopsis of John Ogbu’s research so questions like these and so many others can be put to rest. is research goes a long, long way in explaining the post 1965 decline of the Black community.
3) In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
Not really I can get along with both. But as a conservative Black person I have more in common ideologically with African and Caribbean immigrants. Around most Black folk I find myself having the exact same ideological arguements. For instance the Civil Rights Act. I cannot tell you how many times I had to explain that the act does not give us the right to vote. It is symbolic in nature and our voting rights are attached to the 15th amendment. Then there is the rationale that since most atheletes in the NFL are Black then the coaches, general managers and presidents should be as well. Yet when I ask them to apply that same logic to MLB (9% Black) and ask should Black be limited to only 3 manager positions in MLB? Stammering ensues…
It’s a stock photo. She’s fabulous, isn’t she?
Yes. Yes she is…
WARNING!! EXTREME THREAD DRIFT!!
Not that it’s a bad thing, you understand.
Thread drift? Somebody mentioned the sweet child’s clothing?
Wow, what a great topic. I had this debate with a friend of mine the other day. Before I start into an extend diatribe I want to say, that I agree with a lot of what is being said by certain individuals. I’m an American black I attend an “elite” college in New England and one of my best friends is “African”, but attended an elite boarding school in the Hamptons prior to attending college here. I only put that out there as she and I have this sort of conversation. I think what everyone is leaving out which is typical when talking about “Black Americans” is social class and values. I’m sorry to burst everyone’s bubble, but comparing all blacks to the lower class trash that exist in a large number of cities is out right wrong and foolish. Here’s where the problem begins with whites, some blacks, most foreign blacks, and foreigners in general. Black America has an image problem that is displayed and distorted throughout major cities, rap videos, and popular culture. People do not associate “black Americans” with social class, they think of them as all poor and dangerous. Here’s a quick story on what I’m referring to. My Aunt and Uncle were in the market for a live in nanny for their children, so she figured that all of her white friends were involving “African” nannies for their children she’s a black women why shouldn’t she? Anyway, the Nanny comes and after talking to my aunt on the phone for a few weeks was shocked to find out they were a “black American” family. When they picked her up from the airport she was terrified, that she would be living in the ghetto of Boston and dodging gun-fire on the city streets. This totally shocked both my Aunt and Uncle who live in a very large million dollar house in the suburbs of Boston and send both of their children to prestigious boarding schools. My Aunt wanted to cry hearing how terrified the young African nanny was of American Blacks considering she had never met a family of American Blacks. Anyway, she had no idea that there were upper class well to do African American families that did not act like pardon my language, those ghetto lower class blacks like “Puff Daddy, athletes, and music entertainers.” She thought she was going to be walking to in a mad house. It was very eye opening for her and she would bring by all of her over African Nanny friends as they were all shocked and could not believe it either.
Okay, back to my Americanized African friend she is from a very well to do family in Africa, so most of the friends she has her at our school and other schools in the area are also from well to do African families. They are the cream of the crop where they are from and the entire one’s i’ve met were polite and well mannerd. However, if you go to any of the Boston ghettos they’re full of non American blacks and Caribbean and Jamaican blacks that often get mistaken for American blacks they’re lower class, rude, and dangerous.
I’m stressing that class has a lot to do with this sort of issue and what I find shocking is that people love to generalize all blacks and put us into one pot and serve it for dinner. Upper class people are well mannered and interact well with other upper class people regardless of race and so on and so forth for other classes of people. Most people tend to find poorer people the hardest people to get along with regardless of race. What disappoints me most about this is that no other race is judged by their lower class. Only American Blacks are judged by their lower class. American whites have the largest lower class in the country and populate almost all of the 50 states with their lower class yet we judge them by their upper crust and upper middle class when we judge them or make stereotypes about them? Currently in this discussion board we are doing the same thing with the African immigrants. We are judging them by their upper crust. As I mentioned before I attend an elite college and I do not go to school with any “poor” or lower class Africans. Those sorts of people do not make out of their country just like poor Americans. If one does he/she is definitely the acceptation to the rule. In closing I have never had a problem with immigrating blacks, but I have noticed a slight tension, which is no different than the dark skinned vs. light skinned tension within the black community.
First off, let me say that La Shawn is one fine looking woman! (just don’t tell my wife:).
As a mayonaise & white bread white guy, all I can say is that people are people. I use the ten percent rule: Ten percent of the people in any given population are walking piles of dog squeeze and just a valuable. Everyone else is pretty much OK, if not outstanding.
In short, I don’t care who you are, where you come from, what you look like, or how much money you have; If your a decent human being of good character, I’ll be proud to call you my friend and stand up for you anytime or anywhere.
I don’t have much insight into this ‘native’ black VS ‘immigrant’ black other than to say I am aquainted with a fine black woman who immigrated from Great Britian when she was a young woman. Her name is Monica. She is now a grandmother and a local business owner.
Her accent not withstanding, she exudes a grace, strength & education that truely defines her as a ‘gentlewoman’ – in the old school sense of the word.
A few years ago, Monica had gone into a second business with another local woman and the business failed. Monica complained that it was too
difficult with the other woman as a partner because the other woman ‘didn’t want to work.’ The other woman happened to be a ‘native’ black woman, but I don’t think that had much to do with anything as there are plenty of lazy white people.
But it did get me thinking.
On this blog, as eleswhere on the ‘net, it has been noted that deeply rooted in the ‘native’ black culture is an ‘anti-acheivement attitude’ best described as ‘acting white.’ This self-defeating & self-destructive cancerous attitude locks many black folks out of good job opportunities and cultivates a generational trap of unemployment, poverty & crime.
Perhaps it is this negative american black perspective that many of the immigrant blacks run up against and find so offensive & alarming to the
point of disgust. The ‘native’ blacks in turn may find an estrangement or rebuttal from the ‘newbies’ that is hard to accept or reconcile. Arguments and resentment ensues. Battlelines are drawn.
But what do I know. None of my best friends are black. HA!
Great topic. Thank you and keep up the good work.
My experience as a white guy in NYC with native blacks and Caribbean or African blacks has been uniformly positive. Prior to 1995, in Boston, Washington, Baltimore, and Jacksonville, where I never met a non-native black person, I sometimes faced serious racial hostility ranging from vandalism to random murder threats. I always after my childhood made it a point to live in integrated neighborhoods. The hostility was never universal, but it was always uncomfortable. Uncomfortable is a standards with which I can live.
“Man, her hair is beautiful…”
Whoa! First glance I thought…WIG!
She is very beautiful, but that deffo looks like wig or ‘product’ to me
My uncle (whiter than snow) had an afro perm in 1970’s to go with his flared garments, we thought it was hilarious, as he was fiercely anti-’black’.
I always wondered why afro-girls try and straighten their hair so much it looks like frazzled goop.
Afros rule.
“I am not painting with a broad brush here.”
“blacks in general”
sigh.
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
I would like to see affirmative action programs dumped altogether, so my answer would be “no”. My wife – a black African who immigrated to the US after were were married – is making excellent grades majoring in mathematics without “help” from image-obsessed college administrators.
Why do you believe there is discernable tension between black Americans and black immigrants?
The cultural differences between black Africans and black Americans is huge. For example: in my wife’s country education opportunities are prized almost as much as life itself. In America, too many students (regardless of color) treat education as some kind of cheap possession that they can maltreat and ignore if they wish.
Incidentally, my wife has already had some comments directed towards her from her fellow black American college students about the fact that she is married to a white man. Several have told her that they would never marry a white man. I doubt that this qualifies as discrimination against white people (refusing to marry someone is not a matter of “discrimination”), but I feel that it in some cases it was perhaps an indirect criticism of her decision to marry me. Although I could be wrong.
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
In general, yes.
Two off-topic comments:
(1) The woman in the photo is good-looking, but my wife is far more beautiful. Not that I am biased here – merely stating a fact.
(2) Where does our biological son fit into the racial calculus that many people are trying to force onto this nation? Must he “join sides” like this is a game – or a war? One of the tragedies of the current “civil rights” movement is that far too many have even stopped dreaming of a nation where someone can be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. Instead, the goal seems to be how many wedges they can drive between people for profit and power.
I always wondered why afro-girls try and straighten their hair so much it looks like frazzled goop.
Afros rule.
Comment by JohnD
I second that thought JohnD. Black people, black women in particular, have a love/hate relationship with their hair. I think black people actually buy 75% of all hair care products sold in America, mainly to straighten their hair.
Black folks have a long way to reach complete self-love, including loving their natural hair.
My father is Jamaican. My mother is American. They got along well for a time.
I’ve had nice discussions with Jamaicans, Haitians, South Africans, Nigerians (even dated one for a bit), Ghanians, Trinis, Puerto Ricans, … I’ve had some bad run ins with a few Nigerians and a few “Africans”. The comment about Nigerians being arrogant is on point. They admit it.
My daughter’s friendships are more diverse than that. She gets along well with some, not so well with others.
Saddest conversation I’ve ever witnessed: An African, Jamaican, and Haitian discuss “the pecking order of Blacks” in the world. Africans wound up on top, Jamaicans and Haitians battled out for the middle, Black Americans were on bottom.
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
Only American Blacks. Affirmative action was bastardized for white women and it never should have been the case.
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
People are people.
It is interesting to see a rejection of “broad-brushed” statements juxtaposed with statements such as “Nigerians are arrogant” or “Here’s where the problem begins with whites, some blacks, most foreign blacks, and foreigners in general.”
BCEagle stated:
“American whites have the largest lower class in the country and populate almost all of the 50 states with their lower class yet we judge them by their upper crust and upper middle class when we judge them or make stereotypes about them?”
I wonder if that statement is true.
White trash, anyone?
A person’s behavior determines how easy it is for me to relate to, or get along with, that person. No one race has a monopoly on being willfully ignorant or socially destructive. I certainly don’t want to carry the baggage of being lumped into a group defined by loud, loutish, unkempt, shirtless rednecks. Why would anyone else allow himself to be defined by the lowest common denominator?
Whites DO have [by far] the highest number of people living below the poverty level but many people don’t realize this because there is little attention to white poverty in this country. This is for several reasons.
From the 2005 figures in this census table:
People living below the poverty line
whites 195,553 8.3%
Blacks 36,802 24.9%
Asian 12,580 11.1%
Hispanic 43,020 21.8%
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html
Re the commenters who express discontent with the generalized statements about racial groups. La Shawn originally framed the question in generalized terms and set up the question structure so that we respond in generalized terms. In part I agree with you, because I’m not crazy about making generalizations either, but the commenters are just answering the question. That their biases come out in the process is a logical by product of answering such a question.
This is typical fodder for divisivness. It really depends on who you are, how you perceive yourself and what you REALLY know about the racial history of this country and the world. My wife is Jamaican I am born and raised in the United States and I have quite frankly had a negative experience with anyone from another nation. Black Americans have isolated themselves from the rest of the world and continue to allow themselves to be isolated even when Blacks do this to themselves. In response the Blacks from other countries recoil at some of the ignorance that comes from Black Americans, and I use the term ignorance in its true meaning. For instance, I saw television show recently on PBS and children in the U.S. are still thinking African communicate with “Talking drums from villiage to village.” How can this be in 2007? Why would U.S. television air such a thing? Based on this the Black American believes this stupidity and tranlates this into the actions and conversations with Blacks from other cultures. On the other hand Black Americans believe they have come from Africa via the Trans Atlantic slave trade and now been seperated from their previous culture, and maintain this slave mentality until 2007 and feel as though they are not a “authentic” as the African from Nigeria or Kenya and I believe this is translated in the thoughts and actions of the African towards the Black American as “superior” or “arrogance.” I have not had an issue with any one Black from another country or culture due to the fact I have taken the time to educate myself on various countries, foods, music and a bit of the languages of various countries and a bond is made right off the top. All you that have issues you tend to believe the stereotypes and act on them.
About 40 years ago, my white father went from his home in New Orleans to San Juan, PR, on business. He was puzzled by the difference between the blacks he encountered on his trip and the blacks at home in NO. After a few more trips and some thought, he realized that in PR the black men he saw, whether just walking down the sidewalk, or in “service positions” – waiters, baggage handlers, etc. – looked him in the eye no matter what. At home on the mainland, many black men walked with their heads down, and would not make eye contact with a white man in a business suit. I don’t think it made him feel guilty, but it did bother him quite a bit.
This topic is fascinating to me. The previous post mentions New Orleans. That city always has an interesting take on race.
Anyway, I do notice a very big difference in the non-native black and black populations in Boston, MA. And, that is in regard to health-care. The nurses’ aides in hospitals tend to be non-native blacks, mostly Haitian. These are the folks who wash up your mom, feed your dad and do all the menial things the nurse simply does not have time to do.
The demographic shift in who does these jobs has taken place over the last 25-30 years. At first, low-skilled Irish and Italian workers, then native blacks and now, non-native blacks. The care patients receive has diminished greatly. The aides hide in stairwells to avoid work. They are physically rough with the patients. One woman slapped a nurse in the corridor in front of several patients! This is not a nursing home I’m talking about. This is taking place in a major, metropolitan hospital.
The administration continues to hire from this pool because it’s cheap and they will work multiple shifts, sometimes consecutively. But, they dismiss all the other concerns about their behavior toward the patients.
Has anyone found similar situations in the health care field in his or her city?
The stratification that exists within the black community around skin tone originated with slavery. That’s a simple fact. Whites and blacks in this country will always have a complicated relationship. We seem to be in conflict all the time, but each wonders about the other in all facets. [Deleted]
Let’s not allow the conversation to drift onto that topic.
– Admin
I’m an American Black woman. I was born in Arkansas and went to school with all whites the first 4 grades of elementary school. I was always questioned and teased about being black. When I went around own black family, they told me I talked white.
I later moved to Oklahoma in the 4th grade and attended a predominately black school. I’d never been in a classroom with more than one black person and the culture was the total opposite of what I experienced in Arkansas. I was frightened because for the first time, boys paid attention to me and told me I was pretty. I’d never experienced that at my former school. I was told I sounded white by my classmates. In about a year I assimilated and things got better.
In high school I stopped getting my hair relaxed. My black classmates ridiculed me and told me my hair was nappy. White students told me it was “cool”.
I attended college in Florida where there were blacks from all over the world – the Carribean, Africa, all parts of America. For the first time I learned about the struggles between Africans, Caribeans and Black Americans. My African teachers often told me I didn’t work hard enough. My struggle in college was nothing compared to what my professor went through to make it to America according to him. I had and still do have African and Caribbean friends. I think it’s the beauty of us as a people and I wish we could see past the cultural upbringings and differences and look at the similarities.
I believe that many Africans and Caribbeans have a superiority complex and look down on Black Americans. I’ve worked hard for everything that I have. Both of my parents went college, I took their example and went to college also. I served as an Officer in the Army and went to Iraq twice. I was proud to serve my country because regardless of where my ancestors came from, I believe this is MY country too. This is the land land where my fathers died and fought on going back more than seven generations.
Immigrants must not generalize Black Americans. Blacks in America are just as diverse and Africans and Caribbeans that come from different countries and Islands. Southern, Northern and Western blacks differ in culture, accents, ways of live and the degrees of discrimination they face differ depending on what part of the country they live in.
Africans and Caribbeans have a motherland, a mother tongue, something that makes them unique and able to identify with. As a black woman in America, I traced my family history back about 7 generations I found that part of my ancestors are Creek American Indians. Everything else is a question mark. I really don’t have anything to identify with other than because my skin is black my ancestors come from Africa. But I’ve even been laughed at by Africans for wearing Kente cloth or attempting to identify with my African Ancestors. I wear my hair natural and African women come and touched my hair because it’s long and thick. I’ve been told that Black Americans are lazy by Caribbeans.
I think we should look at what happened in the past, that all blacks spread across North, central, south america and the caribbean were all victims of the atrocities that occured during the slave trade. The difference is that many islands were isolated and eventually gained independence. Blacks in America were forced to live among those that enslaved us and were systematically exposed to slavery and segregation which made having black skin a crime, something that must be hated and suppressed. Many turned that hatred inward and that’s manifests itself to day in Black American culture.
I hope I’ve brought a different perspective to the table.
Okay…I won’t talk about that particular form of media. But, blacks and whites do have this curious fascination with each other.
I’m a white melting pot (8 European nationalities), and I get along with people of all races, as individuals. And I don’t get along with people of all races, as individuals.
First, La Shawn, you’re WAY more beautiful than the stock-photo girl.
I haven’t noticed a lot of difference between native blacks and immigrant blacks, except that I love the immigrants’ accents. I got to know two women from Jamaica, and one was an incredible woman, while the other one (the admin where I worked) was a real snot. And I used to practice my French at work with a man from Mali, until he asked me out to dinner (he was married–ugh!). It really comes down to the individual.
An aside on racial esteem: I had a conversation in 1983 with a South African “colored” woman, before Apartheid was abolished. She described the pecking order of the races in South Africa as: Way on top were Whites. Halfway down were Coloreds (some White blood). Almost at the bottom were Asians (Indian sub-continent). And at the very bottom were Blacks.
At the same time in America, when whites would see people (strangers) with any amount of black ancestry that showed in their features, we’d see “black,” no matter how light-skinned they were. It struck me as I listened to the South African woman that white blood elevated a black person’s social status (though not to the top), while in America black blood lowered a person’s social status to the bottom. It was hard seeing that some aspects of Apartheid were actually less racist than American society. I wanted us to be better than that.
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a schools efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
I don’t think “diversity” concerns should ever trump merit in any instance…and I don’t believe that any group NEEDS such preferences, since I believe no group is innately inferior to another.
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
I’ve always found people who are ideologically similar to me, the easiest to get along with.
I get along well with Conservatives and Libertarians from virtually any background and have a much tougher time relating to or getting along with Liberals from any background.
Threadjack…
Is George Tenet a pathetically emotive vain obfuscating blame-throwing liar who is trying to rewrite history????
At the end of the day, the fact that George Bush kept this inane man on board may be one of the worst black marks on his presidency.
LaShawn,
As a sometimes supporter of affirmative action, I thought I’d take the time to answer your questions and to sum up my feelings about the subject.
Some background: I’m a white male at a private college now. I went to a high school in which white people were in the numerical minority.
Furthermore, my interest in afffirmative action is based more on class than race. In high school, I had many black friends who came from well-to-do families, studied hard and then…because of affirmative action, leapfrogged over many others when it came time to apply to college. On the other hand, in my free time I also served as a tutor to black kids from poor familes. Here I came across some–not many, but some–kids who came from fatherless homes and had drug addicted mothers, but still did well in school. They tried very hard, and had to overcome obstacles that many other black and white kids didn’t (cops and violence in the home all the time, mostly). When the poor black kids applied to college, they were often shut out because the scores of the kids from more well to do families had gotten in ahead of them. I think that’s very unfortunate.
On to the questions:
1) Yes, they should be able to benefit, but the first priority of affirmative action should always be to help out American kids who actually need help, not to fulfill diversity mandates. I have no interest in seeing non-native blacks who attended private schools in England get a leg up on a poor black striver from the Bronx.
2) I do not believe there is much tension at all. Reports of tension are probably overblown.
3) I have been great friends with non-native and native black Americans.
“I’m a white melting pot (8 European nationalities), and I get along with people of all races, as individuals.”
That’s interesting, and it made me wonder:
Do political journalists spend a lot of time working out whether your ‘whiteness’ affects who are, or even asking whether or not (being nominally ‘white’) you get along with ‘white’coloured people from other countries other than that of your or country of birth or adopted home?
Regards,
John
erratum: ‘whether your whiteness affects WHO you are’
JohnD (#50),
Of course they don’t question how my whiteness affects me (yes, I know that was more of a rhetorical question).
Being white, to the race-pandering political journalists, I must be racist scum, and affirmative action is necessary to protect minorities from my oppressive, racist ways.
Angel,
I work at two hospitals here in Las Vegas and I’ve never seen anything like what you describe. As for the racial makeup of the staff it’s very diverse. That goes for doctors, nurses, support staff etc. at both hospitals. Nor have I seen anything that resembles patient abuse and my job takes me to every floor at both sites. I think in that case it goes to upper managment and what’s important to them.
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a schools efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not? The truth lies in the middle, since they are judged by a different standard.
Schools already do this they set aside a certain amount of admissions for foreign students. This is done for the simple reason the foreign students are usually the cream of the crop from their country.
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
Part of my job as an IT consultant is to review an IT departments process, procedures and people. What I have learned is that people are people. Some people are brave enough to move out of their comfort zone even if they are constantly defined by their skin color. Within all cultures there is tension b/c all cultures have underlying issues. In my personal experience I have found if you treat people with respect you tend to get respect in return. Some people will pass their own ingrained prejudices or identity issues in judgment of you or others. Not much can be done for a person who chooses to live their live that way.
Did NO one else laugh out loud when reading post #33?
Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
“Only American Blacks. Affirmative action was bastardized for white women and it never should have been the case.”
In your experience as a white or black American, do you find that black immigrants and multiracial blacks are easier to get along with and/or relate to than American blacks?
“People are people.”
Hilarious.
Greg,
Maybe the pool of non-native blacks is different there. You are in Vegas, after all. But, I’ve worked in health care for 25 years and it’s a definite trend. And, I’m saying this as a black man. So, I’m not happy about it.
I think the culture is different here. I have several black co-workers and they all say that there is far far less bigotry here than back east. (NJ, detriot) They also say that depending on how dark skinned you are also causes problems, needless to say my jaw hit the floor on that one. No, she had no explanation either. It could also be a company thing. HCA, who owns the hospitals here doesn’t seem to put up with mistreating patients. Now it could be just this region as well. Like I said the staff is a true melting pot. Blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, pacific islanders and Eastern Europeans just for good measure. I’m sure I missed a group be you’re smart enough to fill in the blanks.
I have copiers and printers on every floor etc.. on both hospitals so I’m all over the place and I see what’s going on. Good, bad and inbetween. Now if they would just press the start button and not pound on them life would really be sweet!
Greg,
Skin tone is a component of not only interracial interactions, but intraracial ones as well. Another side effect of “the good ol’days”.
Angel;
I have a question…
You maintain that non-native blacks are vicious to patients.
What would your reaction be if a white preson lamented the treatment dished out by “blacks” at a hospital?
To me, it sounds as if you give yourself dispensation/free reign to “generalize and bash” but rail against thsoe same generalizations if a white person does them. Truthfully, I do not understand this trend for rules that are for “thee but not for me”
SkyePuppy, thanks for your response.
You said
“Being white, to the race-pandering political journalists, I must be racist scum, and affirmative action is necessary to protect minorities from my oppressive, racist ways.”
Woah! So it’s feasible that…(race-pandering) political journalists actually GENERALIZE and not only that, spread PROPAGANDA about, wait for it…people of ‘race’?
I wonder when right-wing propagandists will leave the ‘pro-’white’ anti-black camp’ (blacks are generally….bla bla) and left-wing propagandists will leave the pro-’black’ anti-white camp (’whites are generally bla bla’)?
Can’t they see that they are all idiots? I think many can, and those are the ones that are playing the game for money, popularity, easy generalized ‘talking points’ to stir up divisiveness for their political cause. Propagandists, in other words.
1)Do you agree or disagree that non-native blacks should benefit from a school’s efforts to increase racial and cultural diversity on campus? Why or why not?
*****
I used to be a firm supporter of Affirmative Action programs… but now since I’ve gotten older and seen the differences in the two sides of my family, I’ve been forced to change my mind. One side of my fam immigrated here from various parts of central and south America. That side of the fam is largely successful… everyone goes to college and does fairly well for themselves. The African-American (native born) side of the family continues to struggle though.
IF we had affirmative action programs that would actually help end they cyclic poverty in the native-black population then I would be in favor of using them ONLY on the native born population since it was African American struggles that helped bring those programs about anyway.
*******
2)Why do you believe there is discernable tension between black Americans and black immigrants?
*******
There are many variables, but I think what this poster said has a lot to do with it:
“Africans and Caribbeans have a motherland, a mother tongue, something that makes them unique and able to identify with. I really don’t have anything to identify with other than because my skin is black my ancestors come from Africa.”
Honestly, I really wish native black people would stop looking to Africa for some sense of culture… especially when African Americans have built up so many of our own beautiful traditions. Soul food, blues, jazz, hip hop(yes, there are some amazing ARTISTS out there who can do wonderful things with words and a beat), our fraternity and sorority system, stepping, the history of places like Bronzeville and Harlem, our ability to continuously overcome and persevere through the toughest of obstacles.
There are definitely aspects of black american culture that have been perverted and subverted because we’ve catered to the lowest classes of black society. But at the core, I think black america has a lot to celebrate.
Jan,
I’m not stopping anyone else from saying it and it has been complained about. I’m speaking for myself. And, I’m not generalizing about something I know nothing about. I’ve worked in this field for over twenty years. I’m talking about a specific trend that I noticed within hospitals in my area. And, I asked if anyone else noticed the same thing. I didn’t make a blanket statement. When you have the same experience in my field, feel free to make all the observations you want.
Angel;
All I am saying is that so often when a white person comments about a trend they have observed involving another race, however valid that observation may be, they are pounced upon.
I did not question that you experienced what you say you experienced as I have no way to know whether you are exaggerating or not, or whether you are singling out one group over another.
I don’t know and don’t care to speculate about your accuracy as that was immaterial to my point.
Jan,
Then consider me “pounced upon”. You made your cheap point. So, there we are. The difference between what I am posting and what others have done is I am commenting on a specific subset of people (non-native blacks in low-skilled health care jobs) in a specific location (a hospital). In fact, I asked if others had experienced what I had. I am not extrapolating that to describe 30 million people. Whether or not it’s relevant to your point doesn’t matter. I never engaged you. You seem to take any invitation to bash me. So, there we are.
angel;
You still have not addressed my point which was merely that I think that there is a double standard about what white people are allowed to say.
For some reason, you seem to feel a need to defend your comment which was never in question.
It’s really quite odd the way you respond so defensively to things that were not said. You seem to feel a need to take offense where none was given.
jan,
I addressed your point quite clearly. I am speaking for myself. What others do or say is not my concern. If you feel there is a double standard, that has nothing to do with me and you know it. You also know there is a vast difference between someone recounting his anecdotal experience limited to a small number of people and painting an entire people with the pathologies of the few.
You know exactly what you’re doing and I’m done with falling for it.
For some reason I’m thinking of Axel Foley and the banana in the tailpipe.
If the Angel was ever pounced upon by the DarkStar, then that was some celestial light show I missed.
Redbeard and Andy;
My washmachine flooded this morning and I ran out the door to work leaving the bulk of my linen closet contents on the floor sopping up puddles.
Quite frankly, I didn’t think I could muster a smile before noon, but you guys have gone and made me grin.
Jan, my dear old departed Aunt Bessie used to have this bug-eyed chihuahua that yapped, and would crawl under the sofa to bite my ankle whenever we came to visit.
I hated Bay-bay then. Now, every time I think of that little ankle-biter, I can’t help but grin.
Andy;
I suppose even ankle-biters have their role in life, and if they make one smile, who should complain…
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