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I was going to develop the piece below as a column, but since it’s gotten somewhat stale, I’ll post it here instead. Hey, that’s what blogs are for!
Is sending students to a “white privilege” conference with government funds intended to be used to close the academic achievement gap an appropriate use of those funds?
That’s what Seattle Public Schools (SPS) will soon find out. The U.S. Department of Education is investigating the race-obsessed school system to determine whether its use of a Smaller Learning Communities Program grant to send students to the annual White Privilege Conference was improper under the terms of the grant. (Source)
The grants are to be used “to support the development of small, safe, and successful learning environments in large high schools as a component of comprehensive high school improvement plans.” How a white privilege conference fulfills this purpose is a mystery.
According to the conference web site, its mission is to offer “a means to develop and sustain ongoing work to dismantle this system of white privilege, white supremacy, and oppression.” Although the conference is “not about beating up on white folks,” why else would people gather to discuss such ideas as “white man’s pornography,” “transforming whiteness in the classroom,” “multiple systems of oppression,” homosexual “oppression,” and to denigrate that whitest of white traits, individualism?
“White privilege” is the idea that whites enjoy certain benefits that stem from decades of discriminating against blacks. Whites who may not consider themselves racists still benefit from a racist system.
Feminist Peggy McIntosh, associate director of the Wellesley Centers for Women, describes white privilege as “an invisible package of unearned assets” that is “like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks.” (Source – PDF)
According to the “White Privilege Checklist,” you may be benefiting from white privilege if you answer yes to the following:
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
The rest of the list includes statements about traffic stops, IRS audits, and…flesh-colored bandages.
SPS has had its share of race-obsessed faux pas. Last year Caprice Hollins, director of the system’s Office of Equity and Race Relations, declared on the web site that long-term planning, goal-setting, and speaking proper English were white values and implied that holding black students to these standards was “cultural racism.” Last month, school board member Darlene Flynn suggested that superintendent candidates have a “clear understanding of institutionalized oppression.” (See Seattle’s Guilt-Tripping Battles)
After much ridicule, Hollins deleted the offensive web page, and Flynn’s suggestion was downgraded to “institutional factors contributing to the achievement gap.” But the message was loud and clear.
Parents ought to be ashamed for allowing bureaucrats to politicize black underachievement and blame whites instead of erecting a mirror in front of so-called underprivileged minorities. In an op-ed in The Seattle Times, Seattle writer and blogger Matt Rosenberg noted that the white privilege conference has little, if anything, to do with helping black students improve academically. They’ll be well-equipped, however, in useless, politically correct finger-pointing. “What we have here,’ writes Rosenberg, “is an institutional evasion of personal responsibility.” (Source)
Perhaps we should cut SPS some slack. After all, it’s easier to send kids to white privilege conferences, babble about so-called institutionized oppression (though Caprice Hollins herself could find not one example of it in the system), and tell black students it’s OK to speak ebonics in the classroom than it is to demand that more black parents get involved with their kids’ educations and to hold black kids themselves responsible for achievement. The latter is unprofitable and probably not much fun.
Pointing out the obvious is too controversial. Seventy percent of black babies are born into unstable homes. In 2005, only 35 percent of black children were living with two parents. But we’re to believe that white privilege – and not family structure – is a greater cause of concern?
A focus on trendy, mind-numbing ideas as institutionalized oppression takes the responsibility for excelling out of the hands of black students and their families and throws it into the ubiquitous white bogeyman’s lap. It’s unfair to whites and to blacks, not to mention unproductive.
The Department of Education should find that SPS improperly used taxpayer funds by sending students to a white guilt conference.
I’m curious to know your opinion of “white privilege.” Are you a beneficiary or a victim? Share your experiences. 
Addendum: Is “white privilege” a myth?
Update (5/19): A commenter mentioned a study about “black-sounding” names on resumes, where there was a disparity between interview callbacks for people with such names and people with non-black names. In a study called The Causes and Consequences of Distinctively Black Names (PDF), researcher Roland Fryer quoted another study, which found that “resumes with traditional names are substantially more likely to lead to job interviews than are identical resumes with distinctively minority-sounding names.”
Fryer writes: “The results suggest that giving one’s child a minority name may impose important economic costs on the child. In our data, however, we find no compelling evidence of a negative relationship between Black names and a wide range of life outcomes after controlling for background characteristics.”
Fryer said there were three ways to interpret the call-back interview disparity:
(1) Black names are used as signals of race by discriminatory employers at the resume stage, but are unimportant once an interview reveals the candidate’s race, or (2) Black names provide a useful signal to employers about labor market productivity after controlling for information on the resume, or (3) names themselves have a modest causal impact on job callbacks and unemployment duration that we are unable to detect.
Fryer found that black names are a strong predictor of socioeconomic status. People who give their babies black-sounding names tend to be unmarried, uneducated, and poor. Additionally, the woman with a black name was likely to repeat the pattern. What’s happening is that black-sounding names are correlated with disparities, but those disparities aren’t necessarily caused by racism, as so many people love to think. Fryer concludes (emphasis in original):
More generally, this paper takes first steps toward an attempt to understand what role Black culture might play in explaining continued poverty and racial isolation. With respect to this particular aspect of distinctive Black culture, we conclude that carrying a black name is primarily a consequence rather than a cause of poverty and segregation.
As Fryer would agree, having a black-sounding name doesn’t seal your fate. Your life is what you make it.
There is no data to support the assertion that white people in hiring positions turn away people with black-sounding names because they don’t want to hire black people. Many factors go into hiring decisions, but it’s much easier and less painful to think you didn’t get an interview because of your skin color rather than lower-quality credentials relative to other candidates.
Personal note: As you’ve noticed, I have a black-sounding name. My mother named me after another La Shawn, a black little girl she thought was very pretty. (My mother was married to my father, and he’d just started his business. They didn’t have much money, but weren’t “poor” as the word is defined these days.) Growing up, I didn’t think about whether my name was black. It was simply my name. I’ve never been ashamed of having a black-sounding name, and I always introduce myself as “La Shawn,” not “Shawn,” and insist that people spell it correctly. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to correct people. No, it’s not “Le Shawna” or “LaShawn” or “LaShaun” or “LeChan” or ‘Lashawn.”
Is it possible that I didn’t get called for interviews because of my black-sounding name? Sure. It’s also possible that I didn’t get the calls because I was competing against better qualified candidates. I think that explanation is more likely.
It definitely doesn’t matter now. The people who threw my resume in the slush pile did me a favor. I’ve always wanted to work for myself, and working in jobs I didn’t really like or that didn’t suit me frustrated me enough to take a risk and start my own business. 
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“1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.”
Just to throw a wrench at the Seattle Public Schools. If questions 1 and 2 are the standard used then even alot of black people are guilty of “White Privilege”. We’ve discussed before the propensity of people to self segrate. It’s part of the freedom that we have in this country. Freedom of Assembly (or not).
I just took a look at the cover page of the conference web site. Perhaps they could call it “The Politically Correct Racism Conference”, or “Re-inventing Racism for the 21st Century Conference”, or the “Why it’s OK to Hate White People Conference”. Yes, I’m “white” (a term I don’t really care for), and yes I’m offended.
I’m white, raised in primarily white areas, taught to respect all people for what they are, not what color they are. So…I’m probably one of the privileged ones, but coming from a military family, I’d hardly call us privileged in the common sense. Sometimes we lived in military quarters with anybody as our neighbor, sometimes we didn’t. I went to Catholic schools. I don’t even remember the racial make-up of the schools, though I remember the bishop of our diocese in Ohio telling all Catholic schools that they either treated black applicants equally or take down their cross. Obviously, there were tensions, but as a child, I didn’t feel them.
Now….
This(below – way down) is a link to an Amazon book page. I’m not touting the book, but if you read the reviews on the book, you may be astounded – as I was – at the numbers(I probably _should_ read the book!). Going back to a previous thread discussion, we(I) wanted to know why the press didn’t cover that particular story. The facts on this link give me an indication of the problem. Next, I have to wonder about the agenda of the people who choose what gets printed and what doesn’t. It seems to me that even though racism was a much bigger problem 50 years ago, we hear more about it today. Is that an indication that the problem is worse now, or is it an indication that it’s less because we can talk about it more freely? Or is there a reason that the media keeps picking at the scab? I almost get the feeling that there’s an effort to instigate an eventual uprising of blacks against whites.
I believe Communism is alive and well and active in our universities and in our press – though they may not call it that. I suspect that agitation of class warfare is well within their agenda, and even though color isn’t a _clear_ indicator of class, the difference between black and white _is_ pretty clear. If class envy can be fomented between clearly identifiable groups, class war could be the result. I wonder now if the immigrant group won’t give better results and that they may shift their attention, leaving blacks in the dust, so to speak.
Or maybe I’m just another conspiracy nut. It’s just that I really do see blacks as moving up into the middle class, except for those who have various problems that the poor have always had and I don’t understand why the problem seems to be worse than when blacks as a whole were poorer and more discriminated against. Something doesn’t fit.
http://tinyurl.com/2zfc3a
#1: “Is sending students to a ‘white privilege’ conference with government funds intended to be used to close the academic achievement gap an appropriate use of those funds?”
A thousand times NO! The school system has adopted multi-culturalim, diversity worship, being anti-majority, being anti-traditional, being anti-establishment as the basic beliefs of its enlightened, new state RELIGION.
We ALL know that we MUST keep religion out of the public schools.
#2 Am I a beneficiary or victim of “white privilege”? Yes. And when another “group” holds sway over the culture, the answer about that group will be “yes” also.
I have worked with and for all manner of people for my entire life. I have encountered prejudice, meanness and stupidity (white, black, “other”, men, women, gay) along the way. I got myself away from those people who were prejudiced, mean or stupid, because honest, fair and decent people out-number the trash one hundred to one.
I do not understand why people insist on “stewing in their own juices.” Trouble is where you find it and some people are always on the lookout for it.
When you are in the class that must book passage on the lower decks, down in the hold, no matter how badly the people on the upper decks have treated you, drilling holes in the ship in an attempt to scuttle it and drown the people on the upper decks should be obvious as to the problematics of the situation.
Who drowns first?
I suppose I’m one of the “privileged” class although my grandmother’s Italian family experience extreme discrimination in Chicago in the early 1900s as I’m sure my Irish ancestors did as well. They were very poor. My great-grandmother lost everything when her husband died young because women hadn’t yet gained much political or financial power yet and the city of Chicago was quite corrupt. She worked 2 jobs to support her 4 children. My grandmother dropped out of high school for a year to help support the family, her brother worked from the day their father died. My ancestors sacrificed everything to come here, work hard, and build something for their children. Each generation improved the standard of living for the next through hard work.
My family was bottom middle-class when I was growing up. My dad worked after the army, my mom stayed home with the 5 of us. Our clothes were home-made and hand-me-down until I was in high school and started working(I wasn’t allowed store-bought jeans (Levis) until I stopped growing). Our doll clothes were baby clothes from Goodwill or home-made. McDonald’s was a once-a-year treat and we never went out to dinner. My parents saved for 13 years to take us to Disneyland one Christmas (my first flight) and we had one other driving trip to New Mexico. That was it for vacations.
But my parents stressed education, even though they only had high school diplomas, and my dad was fortunate enough to learn computers in the Army when it was still the electronics field. IT did not pay well before the mid-80s. 4 of us followed in his footsteps to the IT industry and all of us are now doing well, despite the ups and downs of the economy.
We didn’t have family connections, we weren’t given anything because of our skin color. We just finished our schooling and worked hard. We all worked our way through college or took out loans. My sisters and I even ran into gender discrimination being some of the first few women in the IT industry (it’s still very male-dominated). The “white” kids we know that didn’t finish school or who got into trouble, are not doing well. There’s no free-ride for anyone except maybe Paris Hilton and look where she’s ending up.
Because of all that, we all now live in spacious houses in nice neighborhoods, have good jobs and are taking care of our families. I firmly believe that anyone could have taken the same path if they desired to. Some of it is luck – being in the right place at the right time, some of it is help from family – we’ve all referred each other for jobs or hired each other when possible, some of it is making the right decisions like choosing a field that pays well. Most of it is hard work and education.
Stay in school, graduate, work hard, don’t get pregnant outside of marriage, and don’t do drugs.
Feminist Peggy McIntosh, associate director of the Wellesley Centers for Women, describes white privilege as “an invisible package of unearned assets†that is “like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks.â€
This reminds me a whole lot of Eddie Murphy’s “White Like Me” sketch on Saturday Night Live. (I think it was Eddie Murphy.) Comments like the one from Ms. McIntosh show that some people believe the SNL “White Like Me” is reality.
I’m white, but I flunked the White Privilege list of 5 questions. I suppose if I specifically went up to only my friends who are white and asked them to lunch, then I’d get a yes answer to question 1. But my church is mixed race, and my school is mixed, and where I used to work is mixed, and my neighborhood is mixed and not quite safe enough that I never worry for my safety. And flesh-colored bandages are usually a little dark on my pasty-white skin. (Oh, the trauma!)
Seattle’s schools are so blinded by their derision for whites, that they don’t care what purpose the money they get is supposed to be for. Educating their students about “white privilege” is real education in their eyes. I hope they get slammed but good for their inappropriate use of this money.
La Shawn’s question: Is “white privilege” a myth?
Answer: It depends on “who” you are.
Is “black privilege” a myth?
Answer: It depends on “who” you are.
Is “white guilt” a myth?
Answer: Yes
Is “human guilt” a myth?
Answer: Absolutely not.
I’m not sure whether it’s the abominable weather or the strange compounds they put in their frou-frou coffee, but Seattle seems to suffer from a form of mass insanity.
Yah, I was raised with privilege. I never met a black person till I was in college (in Wisconsin). Here’s what privilege looked like. My dad was a dock worker with 5 kids to feed. I remember one time in high school I was in the school musical and we were supposed to wear white sweaters. The only one I had was a cardigan button down the front so I had to “turn it around” and wear it backwards to look like the other kids on stage. No way could we afford another sweater for me. Wë ate well, but that’s because we grew a large garden every year and we were required to work in it and do the canning, etc. I picked strawberries for a nickel a quart and hauled hay in the summertime. My girl scout uniform was my birthday present in 5th grade. When I was 17 I was shown the door and told when I got a job to be sure to buy life insurance first thing cause if anything happened to me, my folks couldn’t afford to bury me.
Boy, privilege was great!
I am a victim of white privilege. As an abnormally pale white person, “flesh colored” band-aids are too dark to match my skin tone exactly.
Where do I go for my reparations now?
Funny, D-Day.
Dianne – What a story. It’s one shared by many…
The real story behind this white privilege conference and others like it is that people have too little meaningful work to do. I long for a time when people were smart and actually got things done and made valuable contributions to society. Today, they waste tax dollars sitting around gabbing about useless nonsense that won’t get them anywhere near fixing real problems and addressing the real reason behind academic underachievement in the black community.
(1) I could if I divorced my wife.
(2) Yes. And so can everyone else who isn’t in prison or a mental institution.
(3) Yes. It’s called having money. For the first ten years after moving out of my parents’ house this wasn’t the case, but it’s amazing what hard work can do.
(4) Yes. And so can my wife.
(5) Yes. And so can my wife.
Seems to me that a lot of non-whites also enjoy white priviledge. My wife. Her family. My Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian and Sri Lankan co-workers…
I haven’t been hurt by being white, but I haven’t benefitted from it to the detriment of anyone else. To the best of my knowledge, I have never gotten a job, a spot in school, a date, or a better seat at Wrigley Field at the expense of anyone else. I therefore refuse to participate in any Seattle-style guilt festival.
So-called “white privilege” simply means the normal experience of a white person living in a civilized, white-majority society.
The checklist makes no distinctions between a white society that generally treats minorities decently, and one that actively oppresses them.
Is that a crime against humanity? Can there be no place in the world that is white majority? What have we done to deserve this hatred?
If minorities are oppressed, not because they’re mistreated, but just because they feel like…well, like minorities, then the white majority simply has to be destroyed. As is happening now.
The consequences will be that life gets a lot worse for whites AND for minorities, because rewarding anti-white hatred will not reduce that hatred, but rather inflame it.
Thank you, La Shawn, for thinking outside the box on this.
White privilege does exist, but like anything else it is what you make of it. Where I live there is a stark difference between the lives of most whites and the lives of most nonwhites. Race here is closely aligned with class, as I do believe some other commenters have pointed out. But then again, there are white people who are poor, there are white crack addicts in my neighborhood, and there are white lower middle class people living right next to the rest of us. Some white people don’t realize the privilege they do have. Yes, the privilege is there and the difference is palpable to anyone who is not in complete denial of it. As a perceptiply non white person I do feel the difference in treatment. White privilege exists – it’s only a mental construct but that is enough to make it real.
But you know what – I am better than that system. Does it exist? Apparently it does. Does it have to drag me down? Of course it does NOT. I work, I got my education (went further than most people PERIOD not just among minorities). I don’t give much thought to the white privilege “system”. OK so it’s there but I move on. I have to do for ME and my family. Feeding into the construct with conferences? That’s feeding into the idea. That is feeding into that system. I choose not to do that. I’d be absolutely LIVID if any one of my children were sent to such a stupid thing. (Just one more reason to send my kids to Catholic or private school). They are going to learn to face prejudice, but they are not going to be CONSUMED by fictions that they are inferior to anybody.
So yes. “White privilege” exists. It exists in people’s minds. But.
I refuse to let other people’s insanity define who I am. I do that.
I do believe that in an urban setting where the majority of people are White, there is a benefit that comes with being White, but because that is the majority group. It’s not like the Eddie Murphy sketch except on small levels, (There certainly are people of every group who will offer “freebies” to people of their own group for no other reason than their color) but it exists.
I think the McIntosh article was a very useful tool in getting people to look at themselves through somone else’s eyes, but it should not be allowed to grow into a guilt tool.
White priviledge isn’t a myth, but we all benefit from “same group priviledge” at some point or another.
I gotta admit, I was a kid when Band-Aid started advertising flesh tone bandages and after awhile I started wondering why they weren’t available in darker shades, and I felt left out. Now I wonder if perhaps the focus on flesh wasn’t better left alone.
If you’ll forgive the self-plug La Shawn, here’s something I wrote on this topic.
http://thegospelshowonevoice.com/Pieces/?p=575
Good comments to all of the above.
“Or is there a reason that the media keeps picking at the scab?”
Can I use that line suek!
The privilege is this. If you work hard and you get an education either trade school or college, you’ll have a good shot at the american dream. It’s call the American privlage, that’s why everyone wants to come here. Race is only an issue if you let it become an issue. Or if you can make money and gain prestige by doing so… The good Pharisees come to mind.
The reason the media keeps picking at the scab is due to the old maxium… “If it bleeds it leads”
For the theory of white privilege to be taken seriously, you have to provide a scientific control. Given a black population in a society where whites are not the majority, do we see the same dismal failure?
If we can observe the same phenomenon in a society devoid of white majority, then the pattern of success or failure can’t be blamed on white privilege.
There’s this other continent called Asia …
>>The reason the media keeps picking at the scab is due to the old maxium… “If it bleeds it leadsâ€
Comment by vegas art guy — 05.18.07 @ 4:58 pm>>
Heh heh… I can _tell_ you’re an art guy! What a visual!
Andy…have at it!
GIAO has a great point.
I mean really, do Asians benefit from “white privilege” or is it “Asian privilege” or is it even “privilege” ? So many questions…so few answers.
Seriously, having grown up with very little in the way of material goods, my perspective is that privilege is more a function of class and follows closely upon the heels of a good education.
Jan, that’s it exaclty. My dad grew up in Upper Michigan in a very small house and not much money. His parents insisted (with a belt) that their kids get an education and all of them were successful. My dad got a masters in EE and let’s just say I didn’t grow up poor. It took me a few tries but I have finally gotten on the right track as well.
Here in the US your success is dependant on YOU….
>> Here in the US your success is dependant on YOU
Whoa. Crazy talk.
Sure, white privilege exists. But this privilege is only relevant in relation to your upbringing. So you might say, if whites are more likely to come from stable homes than non-whites, then such whites are privileged.
The problem I have with this idea is that it somehow seems to excuse failure. My white grandparents came from Russia. They were, by any definition, underprivileged. But they worked their butts off and succeeded.
Giao, it’s crazy only if you like the European model. Yea, that’s sure worked out well…
Giao… re: “Given a black population in a society where whites are not the majority, do we see the same dismal failure?”
We have two such cities in the US, and maybe others that I’m not aware of, but the two I know of are New Orleans and Atlanta.
New Orleans has so many problems of a systemic nature that I wouldn’t even bother to count N.O. as “typical” of ANYthing but itself. But Atlanta, in which only 33% of the population is white, seems to be a fine, thriving city. I’ve been there a couple of times recently, and it seems like a nice place with a bustling economy.
If your world view is that of a victim you are at risk. My mother was one of 6 whose parents died at a very young age leaving them all orphans. All but the oldest were raised in an orphanage. All of them came from nothing, worked hard and succeeded in raising fine families and contributing positively to their communities. They never thought their lot in life was the fault of others. I guess they enjoyed the privilege of not thinking of themselves as victims.
mamapajama,
what about Washington DC? I grew up in the suburbs of VA so that city sticks out in my mind to some degree. Its population is 57% black, 38% white (data from 2005). How would you characterize black society in Washington DC success?
LaShawn, It’s frightening that this type of nonsense is being promoted by educated people who often possess degrees and titles from name institutions. They come together to opine (not a fact based activity for many),reinforce their emotional conclusions and never ever consider the reactions coming from those who poke holes in their peeve. The people of Washington State (in this case) who allow this type of thinking to develop among public servants and officeholders in the education system deserve the derision brought on by this type of nonsense. It appears patently obvious that a debate between someone well informed as to the content and historical development of the Constitution and a spokesperson for these malcontents could embarrass them into silence. Just my thoughts.
Mama,
NO would be a typically corrupt city. Perfect example of how NOT to run things…
Since no one has answered that white privilege is real and a defining characteristic of our society, I’ll at least jump in and say, “Yes, white privilege is real. It’s not a myth. I am white, and I am privileged because of it.”
But I hardly have the time to argue the point here. Gloria Ladson-Billings, Joyce E. King, Christine Sleeter, and Beverly Daniel Tatum are all excellent sources on this.
Test groups send resumes to companies. Resumes with “Black sounding names” receive no offers for interviews while similar or less qualified resumes do get offers for interviews.
White privilege?
In the D.C. area, about every 2 years, test teams are sent out to different apartment complexes to determine if discrimination is happening. They find discrimination when equally qualified applicants apply for apartments. The white applicants are approved over the Black applicants.
White privilege?
A medical association funded a study that showed Black patients, even when accounting for income level, were offered less aggressive treatment for heart conditions than whites.
White privilege?
Darkstar,
are there actual data to support your post?
Yes, those things have been known to happen, and DS will come back with a slew of links, I’m sure. What the studies usually play down, however, is that people may not be getting jobs (see update to this post for link to study) or qualifying for apartments for reasons apart from race. For instance, blacks are turned down for loans more often, and when they get loans, they’re usually have higher interest rates. The questions that should be ask before anyone’s race is brought up are, “How is their credit? What’s their credit score?” Usually, that subject is buried at the bottom of a story with an alarmist headline like “Blacks denied loans at the rate…” or some such. The people being turned down for loans have either no credit history, poor credit history, lack of money for a down payment, etc. All one need do is ask the loan office why he/she was denied a loan. Typical answer: credit score. If one goes sniffing and scratching for skin color-based explanations for denials and failures (but taking all the credit for successes), they’re sure to find something besides themselves to point to. – Admin
My members of my family, including my Greek-(legal)-immigrant grandfathers, and my 1st generation father and myself have all been too busy putting our shoulder to the wheel worry about being a beneficiary of any such privilege; real or imagined.
Then again, I’ve always been of the opinion that luxuries such as a “well developed sense of entitlement” are only affordable to those who aren’t busy making contributions to their families, communities and society as a whole – regardless of race, color, creed, etc …
I suppose I should really get with the program and re-factor my thinking so it is more vicitim-centric!
Test groups send resumes to companies. Resumes with “Black sounding names†receive no offers for interviews while similar or less qualified resumes do get offers for interviews.
White privilege? -Darkstar
Test groups send resumes to companies. Resumes with “redneck sounding names†receive no offers for interviews while similar or less qualified resumes do get offers for interviews.–
White privilege?
Just to note: My daughter recently got a job in our “hood” and was told that the kids in the area were appallingly terrible employees with little or no work ethic and while having a high school diploma are functionally illiterate. Seven were fired within the first four weeks. My guess would be that if the employers have a choice between applicants with similar qualifications on paper, they will go for the employee that does not come from our area.
At a conference about universal pre-k, those who were promoting it and those who were opposed to it ALL noted that black people have the greatest access to early childhood intervention even when compared to the group of all whites. Further, people in rural areas had the least access.
White privilege?
White folks live in rural areas have meager access to jobs, grants, programs, and public facilities.
White privilege?
Your White Privilege alarmists have not read Thomas Sowell’s Basic Economics.
Sowell articulates, in a unique way, the concept of “created wealth”. With Slavery, there was no “Created Wealth” with half the population, who had no earning power.
Today, EVERYONE is better off without slavery – Black Americans not only consume (with money they earn), many Black Americans have contributed to “created wealth” by being CEO’s etc..
So the idea that Whites or anyone else “benefited” from slavery is against all the concepts of “created wealth” – as so clearly discussed by an ancestor of slaves – Prof Sowell.
The one thing that really concerns me is the lack of access to a decent education in urban areas. I do think that those with an access to a decent education are very privileged relative to those without access, though I do not view the actual privilege as related in and of itself to race.
Yesterday, I read a shocking report about teachers failing very basic accreditation. oh my… http://www.myfoxdfw.com:80/myfox/pages/InsideFox/Detail?contentId=3205107&version=9&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=5.7.1
Once again, very interesting topic.
I think there is an appearance of white privilege but, when you pull back the curtain, you see it really isnt.
Even if it really DID exist, it bothers me not one iota. I’m a successful black man regardless and I roll with the punches. I also take advantage of what ever is given to me.
I’ve seen both white and black folks use white privilege as either an excuse or a reason why they should get something.
I remember a white friend of mine who lost out on a contract to do a clean a huge commercial building, it was worth almost 2 million dollars per year. He lost to a black-owned company. First thing he said was, “aw they had to give it to them because they’re black” In actuality, the black owned company had 20 years experience on his company. He didnt like it when I pointed that out. He figured that since he was white, he should have gotten it, regardless of the fact that a minority copmany was actually better qualified.
If it were up to me, I’d be teaching money management and entrepeneurship in schools. That is THE way to go today. If all these folks are tired of white privilege “holding them down”. Learn how to make it on your own, be your own boss, start your own biz.
If it were up to me, I’d be teaching money management and entrepeneurship in schools.LukeNC
Great point! Our small business economy in the US is the third largest economy in the world and it absolutely makes sense to tap into this great economy.
Here is my “White Privileged” experience. My name is R. Butler. I am 1/4 Cherokee, 1/4 German, and 1/2 Irish. I am classified as a Caucasian.
ALL ethnic and racial groups need to stop sterotyping Whites as privileged. I grew up on Welfare in a one-parent home in Long Beach/San Pedro CA. with two brothers and two sisters. I went to an Elementary School (Lincoln Elementary) that was racially diverse. We often had barely enough to eat or wear. I spent many days of my childhood pushing a lawn mower around Long Beach looking to make a few extra dollars. I also collected soda bottles for the deposits and helped and elderly disabled man with simple chores. This was all before the age of twelve. No one can ever tell me I grew up “white and privileged. I had very few things “handed” to me. I have earned every dollar that passed through my hands (Thanks Mellencamp).
La Shawn writes:
“Black names are a strong predictor of socioeconomic status. People who give their babies black-sounding names tend to be unmarried, uneducated, and poor.”
[It's one of Fryer's findings, not my opinion. I edited the post to make that clear. - Admin]
What does this have to do with getting an interview based on a resume? Unless one wishes to argue that, for example, poor/single people aren’t worth the time to interview.
“Many factors go into hiring decisions, but it’s much easier and less painful to think you didn’t get an interview because of your skin color rather than lower-quality credentials relative to other candidates.”
Recall the disparity being addressed: Identical resume, different name, different interview rate. The credentials were identical at this point, making the statement above a non-issue. And if you fail to get the interview because of a name, your odds of being hired are exactly 0%.
[Wouldn't it be interesting to know if black hiring managers reacted similarly to black-sounding names on resumes with identical credentials? - Admin]
A more general question: Do the ends justify the means? If it is true that Black names have no impact of the variety of jobs that those who have them get, does that make discriminating based on those names acceptable?
Please note, Fryer did not deny that name-based discrimination was happening. His conclusion was, “…we find no compelling evidence of a negative relationship between Black names and a wide range of life outcomes after controlling for background characteristics.†In short: “Well, it all works out in the end, so there’s no problem with this form of discrimination.”
[I didn't say whether Fryer denied it or not. I wrote: "There is no data to support the assertion that white people in hiring positions turn away people with black-sounding names because they don’t want to hire black people." - Admin]
For what it is worth, the kids from my area may look the same on paper, but a high school diploma from around here is very different from a high school diploma elsewhere. Additionally, a disturbingly high percentage of the kids look,talk, and act like thugs.
When our daughter was looking for a job, she dressed to the nines just to ask for an application and made sure that she got an interview to help dispel the totally warranted reluctance to hire kids from this area.
We could have whined that it was unfair to discriminate against kids from this area, but we actually thought it was a fairly reasonable response to the demographics.
Obviously, not every kid from my area is going to have a poor work ethic or an inability to do the work with proficiency, but after interviewing ten local employers, far too many of the kids are not desirable employees.
We once hired a lady named Letisha and a guy named Rondell. Call us crazy, but I suppose it had something to do with them being better qualified than the white applicants.
Now… does that anecdote prove that black-sounding names never cause any hiring discrimination? Of course it doesn’t. Discrimination is found in many places, and of course it’s unfair. But it’s not everywhere, nor is it insurmountable, nor is it the zero-sum offset of anything as ridiculous as the invented concept of white privilege.
Redbeard;
Did you guys hire a BillyBob or a Jethro?
My area is one that is scheduled to receive some refugees from Burundi who are being resettled in the US. They have been refugees, mostly living in camps, for the past 35 years. However, they are eager to make a new life for themselves in the US. Most of them know only a little English. Yet within a few years I will bet that they will speak flawless, grammatically correct English; and their children will go on to college (on their own merits, not affirmative action), and that the next generation descendants of these immigrants will be in the professions.
Sometimes life is what you make it, no matter what your beginnings. . .
White privilege? This topic really irks me. I grew up in a single parent home, in extreme poverty, OFTEN going without food because my mother refused to sign up for welfare (I do not admire her for that under the circumstances as pride should not result in your children starving). We had no relatives to help us out (long story) and my mother was unfortunately mentally ill. We lived in the poorest part of town, in ramshackle homes or trailer houses. Despite all our problems, my mother did encourage us to do well in school. We were too poor to have a television, but we all had library cards. The girls in the family were academic high achievers; the boys didn’t fare so well (maybe due to lacking a father figure). My brother wouldn’t go to his graduation because he only had one pair of jeans and back in those days, you didn’t show up to graduation without a pair of trousers, and we couldn’t afford to buy him these.
I don’t say all this to “boo hoo” but to point out why I have NO sympathy for those who wail and whine about how they are discriminated against and are victims of society. We lived a humiliating childhood in terms of where we lived, the clothes we wore, our mother’s mental state, and the ever present realization that we were not normal and could not participate in regular activities or events that normal people enjoyed. Girl Scouts? Who could afford the five dollar dues? We lived in the rural or small town south among many blacks and hispanics and I don’t think any of them were poorer than we were. At least they had food stamps so they got to eat, which was more than we had. I will say we led a safer/better life than we would have had we lived in the inner city somewhere.
If I could figure out at age 12 that it was up to me to improve my life by doing well in school and getting a job, then anyone can come to this realization . . . IF THEY WANT TO DO SO. I dropped out of highschool and immediately obtained an equivalency certificate and went to college on student loans and grants. I chose a profession (nursing) which I knew would give me job security, even though I really wanted to major in English and just read books all day for four years. In the olden days, that was known as “personal responsibility” and “foresight.” I became successful and normal enough, eventually, that people found it hard to believe that I could possibly have come from the childhood that I did. I guess I never knew that failure was an option, because no one told me that it was.
As I see it, the downside of white privilege is that we poor white folks don’t have a whole cheerleading squad of thousands of white liberals telling us that it’s not our fault, that we can’t help ourselves, that we can’t expect more of ourselves, that someone else is keeping us down, and that there is no hope unless we vote for a Democrat . . .
Batyah;
What an amazing story! I was riveted and moved and am delighted to discover some of the genesis for the very genuine and sometimes feistiness of your positions.
As someone that grew up with my five brothers sharing one bunk bed (three of whom are doctors), I tend to have little sympathy for the whinging that is endemic in our society.
If I watch one more legislative hearing with stay-at-home mothers with highlights, hair extensions, stylish clothes, acryllic nails, while plagued by obesity, bemoan their lot in life, I will scream.
Thanks, Jan. I also want to clarify that my mother was married to my father, same father for all of us kids, and that they divorced when I was an infant. He decided to become a world traveler after the divorce and chose not to pay child support and we could never track him down to get it. My relationship with my mother (now dead) is too complicated to elaborate on here, but she had many faults and failings, some severe, yet there were a few standards that she did manage to set for us: education, self-reliance, and sexual virtue. If “underprivileged” segments of society would do their schoolwork, get a job, and keep their legs closed, a vast majority of their problems would vanish into thin air overnight.
Batyah;
What can I say but “wow.”
And, at the end of the day, despite all, your mother gave you wings, and you have soared with them….
Either the Seattle School District or the King County School District (Seattle is in King County) require a questionaire to be filled out for each student. If the question re race is left blank the school district will look at the student and fill in the race they think the student should belong to.
Check out the folowing website for the Seattle Public Schools to get an idea of how they have institutionalized diversity: http://www.seattleschools.org/area/equityandrace/communitycrpd.html
Divided we fall. For our country to survive we need “unified diversity”
I was speaking to a friend of mine’s daughter (from Portugal) and her friend, both in college. My friend’s daughter said that she loved the US and school and life and yadayadayada. I mentioned that I found the racial obsession in the US rather stunning and was blown away by the fact that my youngest was denied a transfer from an abysmally failing school because she was white while my granddaughter (whose father is from Equador) was given a transfer as was the illegal immigrant kid that cuts my grass. This was my intro to the insanity that has overtaken the US.
My friend’s daughter’s friend burst out that she often goes home from class in tears after being told by professors that she is supposed to apologize for being born white. Why would any adult do that to other people’s children?
My friend’s daughter was stunned as she had not even noticed the dynamic. All she hears is that she is trod upon (her millions notwithstanding), and that her culture is wonderful, dynamic, vibrant, and yadayadayada.
So, here we have a scenario in which whites are lacerated for their privilege and their culture demeaned, while being expected to be very sensitive to the pain of others and told to uphold the culture of others as being superior.
How stupid to think that the good feelings of some must be built upon the destruction of others.
Jan, that is a very disheartening story but I can believe it as I’ve heard it before. Most parents have no idea that this is what their children are being subjected to, at their expense, no less!
Here is an organization of students who are keeping an eye on campuses around America. You may find this very interesting:
http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/
As I alluded to earlier, one of my concerns is the apparent assumption on the part of the touchy-feely left that racial advantage is a zero-sum game. In other words, if one person gets a good job, another person won’t be able to find a good job. If one person gets promoted, another must get demoted. This seems to be the bogus basis for the white guilt nonsense.
This zero-sum nonsense is the faulty basis used by hustlers for all sorts of victimization whining, and it’s just not true. As John Kennedy once said, “a rising tide lifts all boats.” But that rising tide will only be realized when we stop cataloging every little grievance and every little bit of self-imposed guilt, and just get on with life.
batyah and jan,
I have a similar story and I am with you when it comes to the whining about white privilege. My parents married at the age of 16 and dropped out of high school. Both came from poor legal immigrant families and were the youngest of 10 and 13 kids in their families. My father worked three jobs including swamping out a bowling alley in order to raise us and they would have died before they would have accepted welfare. The instilled a work ethic in all of us and relying on anyone but ourselves to make us better was not even an option. I pulled rye in the wheatfield when i was 10 and sold seeds from door to door, held down jobs from that time on and bought my own school clothes. Do I feel sorry for myself? Heck no, my sister and I both have college educations and good jobs (School Principal and CPA)and our brother has a trade school degree and a good job (Manages a mechanic shop). Our parents encouraged us to further our education. Is it white privilege that got us there? No, it was the work ethic instilled and the hard work performed by both of my parents.
Redbeard;
You are so right about the zero sum game, both in terms of economics and cultural perceptions.
To lift up a minority culture should not mean that one has to tear down the majority culture.
It baffles me that so many see it that way. One reason that I confine my comments on this board to a specific comment that I may agree or disagree with, is that I find it objectionable to make blanket statemenst about an entire culture.
And, when it comes to wealth creation, money in one person’s pocket is not money taken from another’s, yet a distressing number of people seem to think that the wealthy actually take money from the poor.
I fear that we are a society that is consumed with envy. Even listening to the statements about Paris Hilton have sickened me as so many are evincing an element of glee that she is going to suffer – very different from wanting to make our streets safer.
dd;
Another amazing story and, if you are the principal in the family, I would be fascinated to hear how your personal story translates into your approach to education.
jan,
I am not the principal in the family, my sister is and she is absolutely amazing. She is working in private sector and is a big advocate of private schools and religious education. She takes less pay so she can teach in this environment. The stories she tells are amazing. I couldn’t do what she does. But I am always in awe of her for making such a difference in people’s lives. The interesting thing is she was the first in the family to go to college (and graduate – she’s older than me). And when her high school counselor asked her what college she was going to attend, she came home and asked our mother. Our mom, not knowing what resources are available to people, said we dont’ have money for that. Well, long story short, the guidance counselor showed her how to apply for grants and scholarships and such.
dd, when I was young, I thought I was the only one. I felt like a freak. Then when I got older, I discovered that so many of my friends had similar stories and that is probably why we gravitated toward each other in the first place. Many of them became successful due to sheer determination and willingness to work. It’s nice to see some poor white crackers telling their story here.
batyah,
I love to hear the success stories. Years after I moved to Texas I actually had someone make a comment about me being raised a rich kid. It amazed me that because I had become a successful CPA, that people assumed something about the way I was raised. But the truth is, the way I was raised was that hard work and pride in yourself will take you a long way. (Oh and NEVER accept a handout). Although my folks never finished high school, they’ve worked hard and are doing just fine.
Darkstar,
are there actual data to support your post?
Black sounding names
This isn’t the study I was looking for, but it will do for now:
For instance, blacks are turned down for loans more often, and when they get loans, they’re usually have higher interest rates.
I was careful not to include loans because Blacks tend to have poorer credit when compared to whites. And that’s on “us”.
those who were promoting it and those who were opposed to it ALL noted that black people have the greatest access to early childhood intervention even when compared to the group of all whites.
That’s interesting. If there are poor whites in the cities, they have the same access as those Blacks in the same cities. If there are poor whites in rural areas, they have the same access as the poor Blacks in the same areas.
In short, they don’t know what they are saying.
I’m a successful black man regardless and I roll with the punches. I also take advantage of what ever is given to me.
The same here. However, when naming my son, I took into account the “name study” that I pointed out. I like the name Jamal, but I threw it out early in name consideration.
Just because I note something, it doesn’t mean I obsess about it.
dd, Batyah;
There is an interesting peripheral aspect to your stories. For some time, we have heard posters on LaShawn’s site defensively assert that their life experiences and attitudes are the “real deal” and should thus be definitive.
I have to wonder whether your and my experiences will be accorded the same degree of authenticity and broad application.
I am not, however, holding my breath.
There is no data to support the assertion that white people in hiring positions turn away people with black-sounding names because they don’t want to hire black people. Many factors go into hiring decisions, but it’s much easier and less painful to think you didn’t get an interview because of your skin color rather than lower-quality credentials relative to other candidates.
I think that is an interesting turn of phrase as is Fryer’s study.
What I pointed out was the initial screening and callback or non-callback of resumes which appeared to be equal. Fryer’s study goes beyond that phase into the life outcome. In fact, the methods for both are vastly different.
In short, apples and oranges comparison.
That’s interesting. If there are poor whites in the cities, they have the same access as those Blacks in the same cities. If there are poor whites in rural areas, they have the same access as the poor Blacks in the same areas. -Darkstar
I am glad that you pointed that out, because I think it is important and both wrong in one respect and right in another.
I would note that urban areas have received far more attention due to the achievement gap in k-12, so it would be fair to say that poor blacks have gotten more resources devoted to early childhood intervention than have the poor of other races. Urban areas have been targeted because that is where most blacks could be effectively reached. So, while whites in those areas will benefit, the fact of the matter is that the programs are overwhelmingly aimed at the black population.
But, to use your reasoning, then it would also mean that a white in an urban area attending a failing school is as much at risk as a black child. So, are you now going to say that race has nothing to do with lack of access to a decent education?
As for the study about names, I would like some sort of response to #44 as I am genuinelly interested in what you have to say.
And, concerning medical care, I was fascinated by the study by the new England Journal of Medicine.Overall, blacks had a higher level of recommended care than whites.
Results Overall: participants received 54.9 percent of recommended care. Even after adjustment, there was only moderate variation in quality-of-care scores among sociodemographic subgroups. Women had higher overall scores than men (56.6 percent vs. 52.3 percent, P
DS, are you trying to prove that discrimination still exists? Ok, you win.
But if the triggering mechanism is “black-sounding” names, I’m at a loss to explain how this is a “white privilege” issue, unless whites are somehow forcing blacks to use “black-sounding” names for their children. It’s discriminatory, yes, but not a matter of privilege.
My name is a bit unusual, and it’s one which is found equally among whites and blacks. So, I guess I’m in the clear here, on a personal “white guilt” basis.
Btw Jan, we haven’t hired a Billy Bob or a Jethro yet, but we do have a Cecil, and we once had a guy who went by the nickname Goober. Do we get the Redneck Diversity Award?
Hiring a “Goober” puts you way ahead of the class in the diversity sweepstakes.
Here’s the link to the study:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/11/1147
Blacks (57.6 percent) and Hispanics (57.5 percent) had slightly higher scores than whites (54.1 percent, P
I would note that urban areas have received far more attention due to the achievement gap in k-12, so it would be fair to say that poor blacks have gotten more resources devoted to early childhood intervention than have the poor of other races.
Correct. I should have added that but didn’t. In fact, horror of all horrors, this is something that Jesse Jackson, Sr. has pointed out, but rarely has received attention.
But, to use your reasoning, then it would also mean that a white in an urban area attending a failing school is as much at risk as a black child.
That would not be my reasoning and it is not my reasoning. Off and on, I’ve written about the horrors of the Baltimore City School System, and for the most part, I leave race out of it. When I’ve mentioned race, it has been in the context of Black Dem politicians doing the wrong thing, IMO. Additionally, I have stated a few times on the blog, radio comments when calling into talk shows, and to members of the past Ehrlich administration that the biggest problem is that a core amount of Baltimore City Public School System parents don’t care enough about education of their kids.
As for the study about names, I would like some sort of response to #44 as I am genuinelly interested in what you have to say.
I don’t see what that has to do with names. That is appearance and work ethic, both which are important when going and keeping a job.
And, concerning medical care, I was fascinated by the study by the new England Journal of Medicine.Overall, blacks had a higher level of recommended care than whites.
I’ll find it and read it.
But if the triggering mechanism is black-sounding names, Im at a loss to explain how this is a white privilege issue, unless whites are somehow forcing blacks to use black-sounding names for their children. Its discriminatory, yes, but not a matter of privilege.
OK, try “Black tax”. How’s that?
Ummm…my husband’s middle name is Leroy…he’s white…….the girl who works for him (she’s black) was floored when she saw his middle name…oh and did i mention she’s 14 years younger and makes over 10k more than him?? she works for him…he’s bailed her out many times…but she is a good worker, just lacks experience. Is this the result of a ‘black tax’???
And Dark Star, trust me, her name is black sounding……i don’t think there is a tax there…she makes almost six figures.
Is there something “success stories” have in common?
Holding a grudge or carping about being discriminated about obscures what it is we need to do to get ahead in life.
Straining at gnats might describe the Seattle school system.
Those who were able to forgive and forget and get on with life have an enormously greater chance to get ahead in life. Mind, do not claim that everyone will have smooth sailing, just insist that a notable amount of what holds us back are self created problems.
Those who learn to forgive one another, tend to have happier and more sucessful lives. Then as often as not, not worry about who should get the credit.
Holding a grudge or carping about being discriminated about obscures what it is we need to do to get ahead in life.
I state again, just because I note something, it doesn’t mean I obsess about it. I’ll add hold a grudge or carp about it.
Those who were able to forgive and forget and get on with life have an enormously greater chance to get ahead in life.
That’s funny. My income, alone, is more than double the median family income in the U.S. That really shouldn’t matter. What does matter most is I am happy.
The point of my last post being, I’m “successful”.
By ordinary material measures
I don’t see what that has to do with names.-Darkstar
Do you really not see the connection?
As for your other two responses in #69-
The first one seems to actually contradict your response that you made in #62 when you said “thay don’t know what they are talking about.”
Your second response is rather unrelated to the point that I was making (Perhaps I did not make my point well), but is not particularly worth addressing.
Black hiring managers do the same thing when it comes to “black sounding” names.
“Oh uh…your name is Aquanetta? Hey, let me call riiiiiiiiiight back.”
Then again, it depends on the job too. An Aquanetta can get the job in customer service or something like that.
But, an Aquanetta is going to have a hard time getting the investment analyst position. So is Devon, RaeQuan, Shaniqua and the rest of ‘em. Even if a DaQuan is the hiring manager.
DS, you obviously got on with life, and made something of it. You can be proud of your success. I think the point that most people are driving at is simply that such success can be achieved, and that all efforts should be turned in that direction and away from the culture of victimization.
I was fired from a job as a young man. What was the proper response to that? To wallow in anger at the boss who sent me packing, or to go out immediately and find a new job? I took the latter path, determined not to repeat my earlier mistakes.
Much later in my life, I had a business partner who turned out to be a low-down thieving skunk. After we split up and I had to start all over again, in competition with him, would it have been better to broadcast my disgust for the man and complain about how unfair the situation had been to me, or would it have been better to ignore him completely, never talk about him in the marketplace, and build a new business based upon my own efforts? Again, the latter seems to have been the better choice.
LaShawn, you state:
“and to denigrate that whitest of white traits, individualism?”
Respectfully, is there any evidence that having paler skin makes one more ‘individualistic’? I assume by white you mean the so-called ‘anglo-saxon’ white?
Does that include pale skinned communists in their millions? Or do you just think that American ‘whites’ are more individualistic than American blacks? Or do you think that people with darker skin, worldwide, are less individualistic than the ‘average white’. (I think there is no average white or black, not to be ‘PC’, but because there simply isn’t)
Or do you mean white Danes or Irish Catholics?
Throw us a clue!
JohnD, I believe you’ve missed the fact that La Shawn is turning the tables on the culture of victimization and using an inverse reference to make a point.
#80.
No worries Redbeard,
I’m dumber than a box of wrenches, and don’t get ‘inverse references’.
So is ‘individualism’ a ‘whitest of white’ trait or not?
#77 Sounds like there is a whole lot of undesirable ‘black’ sounding names in America. I suppose the kids are now paying for the sins of the parents.
There could be more media coverage discussing this fact? Obviously parents call kids names that are contemporary to their society. My parents lived among a town full of ‘John’ and ‘David’ so they did likewise, expressing their desire for their children to fit in, rather than be individualistic.
Now it seems that America is suffering an influx of non-Biblical, non-UK sounding names that are causing their owners to suffer rightful discrimination. There could be some encouragement for young parent’s to behave responsibly and name their children less, I don’t know, ‘modern’ names.
I would say ‘black’ sounding names, but in general that’s not true is it? We are talking about modern ‘celebrity’ and ‘gangsta’ culture here… too often lazily touted as ‘black’ culture by supporters and opponents alike.
Next:
Why people are called ‘John’ and why they are probably white, greedy, corporate moneygrubbers. who are intolerant of other races, unable to dance, and probably in possession of no fashion sense whatsoever.
Or maybe the other John, who is whiter than white, TOO tolerant of other cultures, suffering from so much white guilt that he’s working for Oxfam.
I dunno.
It’s all madness to me.
I’ve said it before, any name study that doesn’t include Jethro and Billy Bob, along with Buffy and Sunshine is utterly worthless. Names often reveal class and education level of the mother–(social status)and the kid is being judged based on that background. If anyone wants to keep seeing race in that, go ahead, but they do so by ignoring that detail. DaQuan and Jethro are both looking for a long wait if they try to get into the investment analyst position–after all, why trust your money to a guy who probably married his sister (Jethro)? I’m pretty sure Sanjay has a pretty good chance of getting hired in the IT department, though.
“after all, why trust your money to a guy who probably married his sister (Jethro)?”
You can google the name ‘Jethro’ and find a whole raft of PHD’s, BSC’s, MDs, financial managers etc etc etc.
Thankfully, these popular stereotypical caricatures that we so love to perpetuate don’t translate so perfectly in the real world, so there are at least a number of Jethros out there who are doing perfectly well, despite us and their dimwitted namesakes.
The others? Well they can just stop complaining and enjoy their sister/towtruck etc etc.
Do you really not see the connection?
No. Explain it please.
The first one seems to actually contradict your response that you made in #62 when you said “thay don’t know what they are talking about.â€
Here is what I quoted. I’ll do it in bold:
those who were promoting it and those who were opposed to it ALL noted that black people have the greatest access to early childhood intervention even when compared to the group of all whites.
For this to be true, from my reading, Blacks must have access to programs to which whites do not have access. That isn’t the case. In cities, whites have the same access as Blacks in cities. In rural areas, whites have the same access as Blacks do in those rural areas.
So, where is the difference?
Black hiring managers do the same thing when it comes to “black sounding†names.
Given what I’ve come across with HR people and hiring decision people who are Black, that is not the case.
I think the point that most people are driving at is simply that such success can be achieved, and that all efforts should be turned in that direction and away from the culture of victimization.
The idea that most Blacks take part in a “culture of victimization” such as they don’t try to achieve and don’t achieve, is a disgusting myth that needs to be challenged and destroyed. Again I’ll ask, if this “culture of victimization” is so strong, how is it that most Blacks, about 75%, are not poor?
For this to be true, from my reading, Blacks must have access to programs to which whites do not have access. -Darkstar
The comment was comparing group access to group access.
Hi JohnD,
You did not address my point, which I actually thought was blatantly obvious. My bad: I never said Jethro can’t get degrees. The point was Jethro faces every bit the negative stereotype that DaQuan does. As does Sally Sue. As does Buffy, if she does anything other than manicures. The point is that people who insist only DaQuan has a problem are ignoring Jethro. That was all. I hope that’s clear enough.
DS said, in answer to my post: “The idea that most Blacks take part in a ‘culture of victimization’ such as they don’t try to achieve and don’t achieve, is a disgusting myth that needs to be challenged and destroyed.”
Just to be perfectly clear, I never asserted that. I believe that most do not, as a matter of fact. And again, let me state that this issue (wallowing in victimization) is a liberal position, not one based upon race. Liberal whiners, professional victims, and their enablers come in all shades of skin tone.
I’ll be willing to bet that the majority of the Seattle leftists involved in the scheme in La Shawn’s original post are guilt-ridden whites, so anxious to “care” that they are foolishly operating at cross purposes with common sense and fomenting the very thing they claim to be against.
Tyrian Purple, I did not miss your point at all, I was just picking up on the tired stereotyping.
I’m sure many of us do not stereotype quite so readily as others.
But for those of us who do? We perpetute it with almost visible glee, safe in the knowledge that the ‘cream’ will overcome all this ‘understandable’ dicrimination that puts barriers in place for the ‘wrongly-named.’
If there is sufficient merit in the job applicant, they should get the job. If there isn’t sufficient merit in a stereotype, it shouldn’t lose the job.
Unfortunately, ’should’ is one of the most useless words in the English language.
Of course peopl ewith ‘black’ sounding names can overcome the prejudice, just like ‘Jethro’ can.
Lashawn, for instance, has proved that not all American ‘black-sounding’ names are ‘welfare mothers’ with a string of ‘baby-daddies.’
In fact, she’s arguably turned the promotion of that stereotype to her own advantage by utilizing it’s popularity as a conservative ‘talking point’.
Exception are not ‘rules’, but neither are gross generalizations ‘facts’
Ah, Seattle… such a beautiful spot – too bad they had to erect a city-sized liberal insane asylum here.
The REAL privilege I see all the time is not based on skin color, it is based on political persuasion. Liberals can and do get away with pretty much anything because the media covers for them. On the other hand, it is basically becoming illegal to be a practicing Republican.
The last election for Governor in Washington State was an abombination of corruption, and yet nobody was prosecuted. In fact the guy who didn’t prosecute anyone is now one of the US Attorneys lambasting Bush! Take any large American city, and chances are it is run by Democrats, and electoral corruption is endemic. But who in the popular mind comprises the “culture of corruption”? Republicans.
Being a liberal Democrat – THAT is beyond privilege, it is a free ride for life and a magic never-go-to-jail card!
John D,
Gross generalizations are not facts? This is a revelation to whom? For the record, I am not endorsing stereotyping. What I am doing is poking holes in the idea that only certain people have names that carry baggage. It’s simply not the case. Of course the bearers of that “burden†can overcome it. This is why it’s silly to harp on the DaQuans of this world, especially when DaQuan’s problem is no worse than Billy Bob’s, as far as their names and the perception of them.
No kidding that those who merit the job should get the job—you’ll never see me arguing differently, and in fact I have argued that very point in the past—it’s just that it’s considered racist by some in that context.
By the way—saying what is does not equal saying what should be. When I say that Sally Sue is going to face discrimination because her name is Sally Sue, that does not translate to it being right to discriminate against her because of her name–I hope that part is abundantly clear.
Tyrian Purple, I was not addressing you, I was discussing stereotyping/generalizing.
Sorry if that was unclear.
“especially when DaQuan’s problem is no worse than Billy Bob’s, as far as their names and the perception of them.”
I’m prepared to accept that there is no racial element to employmability/name discrimination in America.
You have statistics, proof, or personal evidence of this?
“2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.”
Love the loaded language. Whites have been “trained” to mistrust non-whites (by their racist parents and racist society, of course), but non-whites have “learned” to mistrust whites (through their own bitter experiences with racism, natch). Nope, absolutely no good reason whites would come to mistrust non-whites on their own, because no non-whites have it in for whites, but of course non-whites will “learn” to mistrust whites, because of course white people will take advantage of non-whites any chance they get.
My wife’s nephew married a girl named LaNell. She’s white. If her resume were thrown away because her name ’sounded black’ would that be racism? Even though no black person was denied an opportunity? Do names have civil rights?
While those studies do show some disturbing attitudes about how names can be the basis of discrimination, no blacks were injured during the course of the studies. The hiring managers had no idea what race the applicants were. I think the better studies for discovering dicrimination are the ones where the applicants are interviewed in person.
Like another poster asked, what about the children of hippies? Moonbeam, Sunshine, Peekabo, etc.?
At the end of the day, if one has a name that may be a liability, or in the case of my daughter, a geographic liability (#44), then it behooves one to make personal contact of some sort.
John D, with regards to proof—that was exactly the point. Everyone claiming DaQuan has problems because of his name are doing so based on studies that completely ignore Jethro—that was the whole point of saying those studies are worthless. All these words, and we come back to my exact point. Sorry I could not make that clearer before. Glad you seem to have picked up on it, though.
As for linkable data—no, I only have personal/professional anecdotes about how names are regarded. I stick by what I said—DaQuan and Anfernee bear no greater burden than Billy Bob and Sally Sue. And yes, hippie names can be a problem, too. Sunshine went to my school, I remember the reactions.
We’ve all heard of Dweezil Zappa. If his surname were not Zappa, Dweezil could be a problem for him—just like Anfernee’s name could.
I made the sister-marrying reference to show how names like Jethro are perceived here. If you get the Simpsons, watch for snippets with “Cletus, The Slack-Jawed Yokel.” It’s no accident the yokel married to his sister is not named Francis or John, but rather “Cletus.”
For a note on the life-outcomes of people with names like DeShawn, the Freakonomics guy wrote in Slate that DeShawn has other problems that keep him out of the game, such as his economic status. This was on the basis that parents who name their child DeShawn tend to be less educated, which has more to do with his eventual station in life than his name ever will.
Note also I am not saying that DeShawn is doomed because of his parents’ status. He can succeed, but his background has more to do with any problems he may have in succeeding than his name will. You yourself already noted that the Jethros of this world are not doomed, either.
I realize names don’t have the same baggage from one culture to the next—a Polish Agnes I knew in high school was mystified because everyone kept telling her that they had a grandmother or great-aunt named Agnes. I had to explain Agnes is an old woman’s name in America. If age discrimination were an issue, she might have to worry about it, but I don’t suspect her name will hold her back much, if at all.
Years ago, my favorite Alabama barbecue place was run by a guy named Theodis. I still ate there as often as I could. He could have been named Beelzebub for all I cared, as long as he made that heavenly barbecue.
Whoever did that black sounding names study had alot of time on their hands.
Here’s what I’ve seen as the great indicators of economic success:
#1 Self-discipline in spending habits (not buying up the whole store every paycheck, saving your money, living BELOW your means, staying out of debt as much as possible)
#2 Being a truth teller. A legit person is rare.
So even if your name is Daquan or Bubba or Earl Ray or whatever, follow 1 and 2 and see economic success for yourself.
And thats it. Education can be a good indicator, but I cant tell you how many people I’ve seen who had high paying jobs and have to spend so much to keep up the facade.
This kind of stuff cuts across all kinds of lines. Conservatives want to cut taxes so they can invest and spend more, liberals want to raise taxes so that the government can spend more. Both wrong. Neither believes in spending only what you have and saving your money.
I call that old school and they’re a dying breed.
So is individualism a ‘whitest of white’ trait?
Or not?
Let’s try another approach.
Individualism is only a white trait if you believe that things like speaking standard English and getting good grades in school are white traits. Do you believe that, John?
The ‘cart-before-the-horse’ arguments work if you leap over 100 years of socio-economic history and insist that ‘black’ people are worse off now because [fill in the blank with pet grievance].
When in fact the decline began 40 years ago with the welfare state.
Ironically that welfare state has done more damage then segregation.
Not that segregation wasn’t evil… but the social dynamics of permanent victims-status have been much worse.
“Individualism is only a white trait if you believe that things like speaking standard English and getting good grades in school are white traits. Do you believe that, John?”
So let me get this right, LaShawn was being sarcastic in saying: ‘whitest of white traits?’
and was actually hinting that individualism ISN’T a ‘white’ trait, but is falsely (negatively) characterized as so?
If so, er, I guess.
Unless I’ve gotten it wrong again.
Plain speaking is all the rage, I hear!
JohnD;
Surely you have traversed the blogosphere long enough to know that you are supposed to be a mind-reader.
I have discovered that it doesn’t really matter what one writes, it is all about perceptions and what folks think you really meant.Thus, a narrowly defined point becomes so broadly extrapolated that it is no longer recognizable……….and this is what passes for dialogue these days.
That’s why we have so many folks literally incensed by “motives” thinking and they are darn sure that they know what’s in the heart of every man.
Well, better go brush up with my crystal ball…..
If the people with the “black sounding” names become highly educated, exemplary workers, then in short order, “DeQuan” will have an advantage over “Bob” in the job market. N’est pas? Stereotypes are not fair to the individual but one indisputable fact is that there is always some degree of truth to them. I say this even as a Jewish person. It’s a fact of life that we all have to deal with in one way or another.
“but one indisputable fact is that there is always some degree of truth to them.”
Americans are white, obese, obnoxious and uneducated?
The average African is a proud but vioent type of animal wearing feathers on his head?
The Irish are dumb but drunkenly affable?
Jews rule the world as self-interested vermin?
Europeans and the Arabs are principally smelly and lazy
Chinese people are dog-eating aliens from another planet
Conservatives hate black people and are driving for Armageddon (’End Times’)
Liberals are traitorous communists and homosexuals and want to destroy the world with deviance.
Degrees of truth, don’t you love em!
JohnD, just when I thought you had posted an entirely laughable list, I got to the last entry. You almost got that one right, except for the fact that not all liberals are homosexuals.
“just when I thought you had posted an entirely laughable list, I got to the last entry.”
Your selective belief tells the larger truth.
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