***Updates already! Scroll down***
According to our U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ), asking minority job applicants of the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) to display minimal reading comprehension and reasoning skills is racist.
Because non-whites keep flunking an already watered down written employment examination, DOJ has filed suit against FDNY for discriminatory practices.
An excerpt:
In a 14-page complaint filed in federal court in Brooklyn, attorneys for the Department of Justice alleged that discriminatory hiring practices were rooted in two written tests given to applicants in 1999 and 2002 that, while not purposely or obviously racist, were littered with SAT-like questions that do not test an applicant’s ability to fight fires. The suit seeks an injunction and possible damages.
The two “pass/fail” tests resulted in passing rates for black and Hispanic applicants that were lower than those of white applicants in a statistically significant way, the complaint charges.
We’ve been down this road before.
On this blog, we’ve discussed such “controversial” subjects as blacks scoring lower on standardized tests than whites. I even boldly blogged general intelligence and linked to some of the research. If it’s all new to you, I recommend you read those posts before continuing with this one. (Here’s some background on “disparate impact”)
In New York City Fire Department to Lower Hiring Standards, I told you that FDNY decided to drop certain qualifications in 2006 and intended to water down the written test to recruit more minority applicants.
Tests that measure a job candidate’s ability to reason and comprehend are, in my opinion, more important than people think, and here is where people get it twisted. There is more to fighting fires than merely turning on a hose and pointing. Fire fighters must be able to understand written instructions, directions, and evacuation plans. They must be able to navigate buildings and generally have good spatial abilities. Reasoning skills come in handy when you’re under pressure, trying to save lives.
Evaluating an applicant’s ability to reason well and understand is not racist nor discriminatory. It is a legitimate part of the job, any job, even one as “simple” as putting out a fire.
People, we’re not talking about complex questions. These are simple questions that someone seeking a career in fire fighting ought to know. Here’s a sample question * (keep in mind that applicants study for the test beforehand. It’s not sprung on them out of the blue):
While operating at a fire, Capt. Green, the commander of the Ladder Company 999, was sent by Chief Brown to locate the exact location of the fire. The fire building was two stories in height with a basement. Capt. Green found that the fire was located in one corner at the rear of the basement. The best way for Capt. Green to write this information in a fire report upon returning to the firehouse was as follows:
A) The fire was located on the lower level, in the rear.
B) The fire was located in the southeast corner of the lower level.
C) The fire was located in the southeast corner of the basement.
D) The fire was located in the rear of the basement.
The answer is C, and let’s determine why by using our reasoning skills. Obviously, when writing up a report about a fire, the person should be as specific as he can be. All answer choices are correct, in a sense, but the report must contain an exact location, or as close to it as possible. How in the world is measuring someone’s ability to properly fill out a fire report discriminatory?
Hand-holding, coddling…When my mother does it, I love it. When the government does it, I want to vomit.
I want to take a different approach with this post. I know liberals read this blog. I’d like a few to come out of the shadows and answer some questions. Instead of assuming that you support such lawsuits — that testing someone’s cognitive abilities is racist and the practice should be stopped/changed — I’ll simply ask the questions.
*** For liberals only ***
1) Do you believe that testing cognitive abilities of prospective fire fighters is racist and/or not related to the job of fire fighting?
2) If you believe such testing is acceptable, what do you think FDNY can do to hire more “smart” minorities?
3) If you believe such testing is not acceptable, how do you propose FDNY determine if a prospective fire fighter can comprehend well enough to properly write up fire reports, navigate buildings, understand directions, etc.?
Please tell your like-minded friends about this post, because I’m serious. I’d really like to know what you and they think.
*** For all readers ***
Opinions?
Update: A commenter on the Newsday story wrote:
To say that minorities could not do well in the FDNY tests of 2002 is racist in itself. I am a minority. I took the test. I got a 97. The majority of the test was TOO straightforward, simple reading comprehension on a grade school level. If ANYONE did poorly, the problem lies in the education that they received. I found nothing in the test geared towards caucasians or screening out minorities. “littered with SAT-like questions”??? are you F-ing kidding me??? My dog could pass that test. The scrutiny should be directed towards inner city schools where apparently minorities aren’t being taught the basics in reading comprehension.
And all this controversy about the most recent test having questions about morality and washing dishes, etc… Look at it this way. A firehouse is a family. Lives depend on one another. This is no office job. Attitude in the house is part of the job, as are cooking and cleaning both dishes and life saving equipment. This job is all about sacrifice and trust. Many work for 48 hours straight. If an applicant has the audacity to refuse to wash dishes on a test question, he/she would be a damper on the fire company during a tour. Someone not willing to sacrifice in an everyday setting may not be ready to act in a time where lives are at stake.
John Derbyshire writes: “That these loony-tunes “discrimination” lawsuits are still being launched on your dollar and mine, is a stinking disgrace. That it is happening with the plain approval of a president who once sold himself as conservative, is ironclad proof that Bruce Bartlett has been right all along.”
Two terms of “conservative” President Bush have made me realize I’m more “right wing” than I thought. 
Sources:
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Although I claim to be independent, I’m from the UK, so am a raging ‘liberal’ by far-right American standards. This means I shall answer the questions thoughtfully posed by LaShawn:
1) Do you believe that testing cognitive abilities of prospective fire fighters is racist and/or not related to the job of fire fighting?
No. Cognitive abilities relating to safety/effectiveness of a firefighter are crucial.
2) If you believe such testing is acceptable, what do you think FDNY can do to hire more “smart†minorities?
It’s not the FDNY’s problem to hire people based upon the colour of their skin or their cultural background. If a Fire Department is dealing with a poorly educated area and is understaffed, then it must decide whether to run it’s own educational local programme or else encourage suitable applicants from other areas.
3) N/A
Additionally, I do not see this as a race issue or a war between Bell Curve-supporting Rightists and Minority-preference Leftists.
Although I’m sure people do.
Neither do I understand the ‘last taboo’ (via your link) title for asserting that ‘blacks’ are (by nature) less smart, an assertion that is hardly ‘taboo’! Indeed, the dumb ‘black’ is a long serving popular media stereotype that still exists today.
Regards,
JohnD
I have concluded that not enough minorities are surgeons. Therefore, we are going to lower the standards at medical schools to allow those who would otherwise flunk out to become surgeons. This will guarantee fairness, and no one but a bigot could possibly object. Well, bigots and anyone going under the knife, but we don’t really care about them. Right? [insert rolling eyes here]
I recently trusted my wife’s life to a surgeon who happens to be a black woman, a totally irrelevant fact under current conditions. We also trusted this same black woman to bring our new grandson into the world. We know she is a talented and well-qualified specialist, because she had to pass the same difficult course of study as anyone else.
I ask the liberals to be honest here, and tell us how they would choose a surgeon if the med school standards had been lowered to allow substandard students to cut them open.
The best commenter on that story is the first one that appears, by a guy called Batman.
By the way, the pass rates in 2002 were 97.2% for whites, 85.6% for blacks, and 92.8% for Hispanics. Unequal outcomes aren’t proof of discrimination, but I can’t see how those particular scores could be construed as discriminatory. I had thought the disparity must have been greater, like 97% vs. 30%. The DOJ should think of better things to do with their time.
(keep in mind that applicants study for the test beforehand. It’s not sprung on them out of the blue):
I would imagine so. Apparently somewhere in the study guide, it must be expressed that testers can or should include details in the answer that are not present in the question.
Just another waste of OUR tax dollars, I really don’t want a DUMB firefighter, of ANY color, on the truck, in the building, handling life and death situations, Haz-Mat threats and the like…
My niece is a Deputy Chief for a fairly good sized Dept and this hasn’t been a problem for them, apparently the civil service exam and then departmental training and evaluation weed out the less than stellar…
The DOJ needs to worry more about other things I think…
Shade, I’m not clear on your point in #4. Are you saying the test is unfair because it requires thinking beyond a multiple choice scenario? If that’s your point, how is it unfair if everyone is faced with the same questions?
Red Beard:
As a MD, I can tell you.
“tell us how they would choose a surgeon if the med school standards had been lowered to allow substandard students to cut them open”
You have a serious problem:
1 People ARE admitted to Medical School and “propped up” if they are a minority to fill quotas.
2 Some even are preferentially admitted to surgical training programs and also “propped up”.
If you really knew the facts, you would be afraid of getting sick.
PS – NPR had a recent rant on how 911 systems MUST be updated (at great cost) to include automatic locators.
No doubt this is because unqualified 911 operators can’t ask simple questions – like “where the hell is the robbery and fire occurring” “Tell me the address” etc, and unqualified police and firemen can’t follow simple directions like “The fire is here”.
Remember the 911 operator who decided not to call the cops because she thought the caller was a crank?
RedBeard
I never said that it is unfair and never said that it is racist. But this is how I view the question.
I have taken several certification exams in my lifetime and in studying for them, taking classes, etc. one key point that is stressed is to deal only with the information given. Don’t add to it and don’t make assumptions. Deal with the information given.
In this sample question, we are apparently supposed to make assumptions. We must assume that the corner is located southeast, and we must assume that southeast is in the rear. This contradicts much of what I have learned about test taking.
Now in reality, a person who actually walks into such a situation can actually see for themselves that the fire is in the southeast corner and thus would report that detail. But a person may look at this test, observe that such details are not included in certain choices, and deal only with what is given which is that the fire is in a corner in the rear of the basement. Only choice “D” deals with no more than what is given.
It’s interesting that you make the statement “thinking beyond a multiple choice scenario”. I don’t know how many times I have heard instructors say “don’t overthink” on tests. “Deal only with what is given”.
Now viewing this one sample question lets me know that in the interest of showing the most detailed appearing answer, I can make assumptions as long as they don’t contradict the information given in the question. This simple understanding of what the test requires could make a big difference my score, though that would not mean that I’m any smarter than I was before seeing the sample question.
Listen jobs like firefighting carry with then a certain ethos, a certain outlook on life. Whites compete for those job, it is a tradition. For a large number of Black applicants it is a job “I don’t need a degree to get and pays well.” Blacks that can qualify do not want those jobs, they go to college and do something else. Sheesh.
My son, who happens to be white, has spent 3 yrs. working to become a firefighter. He has attended 2 yrs. of college, passed the entrance exam, a local emt test, a national emt test, volunteered 1 day a week at a local city firefighting dept., enrolled in the local Academy, hired on to an ambulance co. for a whopping $10.95 per hour. He is saving now as he will not be able to work when he attends the Academy. All to fulfill his dream. Preferences are wrong and dangerous! Our lives depend on the most qualified be accepted. This should be a color-blind process.
“I ask the liberals to be honest here, and tell us how they would choose a surgeon if the med school standards had been lowered to allow substandard students to cut them open.”
That was a trick question, right?
Like the one that begins:
“so when did you stop beating your wife?…”
I would not allow a surgeon to operate if they had lowered standards. Medical practition should always be a matter of improving excellence, not the reverse.
Hiring a workforce need not be a vehicle for promoting pro-minority or anti-minority political agendas, generalizations, anecdotal stereotypes, pro right-wing racial pseudoscience or racial/political one-upmanship.
If there is a problem with education, no matter what the skin-colour, then address THAT, politicos!
Just leave the workforce to the qualified and dedicated.
JohnD
That would be nice John, however you can fix a problem until you admit it exists. If slavery is the reason for the education gap it will never be solved. If the problem is a community that does not value education, then a change in attitude is an easy fix. I wish education wasn’t political but when one party makes it so they hinder progress.
*can not fix a problem.
*defeat and hinder progress.
Just for once, I feel like answering as a Liberal:
“Yeah La Shawn, but you shown that Einstein guy and he couldn’t read or write either!” (When he was two months old.)
(Which misses the point of the article altogether-okay, I’m going back to Conservative mode now)
Have a great day, all!
Shade, you may be quite right in everything you posted in #9. As a matter of fact, let’s say you are. Then how is your concern related to the original topic? Everyone takes the same test, with the same flaws in the questions, so the playing field is level.
>> Blacks that can qualify do not want those jobs, they go to college and do something else.>>
This is what occurred to me as well. The “smart” minorities find better opportunities elsewhere simply because of the quota system that is implied in any action of this sort. In spite of the law saying that a quota system won’t be put in place, obviously, it already has been.
Maybe ’some’ applicants need to take the test in ‘Bill Engvall’ mode, you know??
Wear a sign that says, “I’m stupid”, that way you know out front to not expect too much from them and you can give them the easy test…
Here’s your sign…
RedBeard said it best: “Everyone takes the same test, with the same flaws in the questions, so the playing field is level.”
And anyone that can’t see it that way is just LOOKING for a fight and for some reason to scream RACIST…
I’d like to see you comment on this, LaShawn:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070524/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsracism_070524134732
Without going into any perceived subtext of Shade’s comment (I don’t see it anyway) I have to agree with Shade that it is a poorly worded question. I know my IQ and it’s pretty good although not genius by any stretch. I would have selected “D” because it is based only the information given. Who said it was in the southeast corner? I don’t have to raise that old chestnut about why someone shouldn’t “assume” do I?
Look, from what was given, answer C could be incorrect, i.e it was actually in the opposite corner whereas from what was given answer D cannot be incorrect, simply not as exact as possible. In some cases it is better to be partially right than fully wrong. What if it was a huge building in area?
It all depends on what is given in the test-taking instructions or study aids but we don’t have that information here.
La Shawn,
As a retired chief officer from the fire service, and now a Fire Technology instructor for a local college I have to say you are right on the mark. To “dumb down” these written tests is a giant step BACKWARDS. You mentioned some of the training required, but here is even more critical training requiring thinking skills: Hazardous Materials Technicians which require a strong Chemistry background, Emergency Medical Training such as Paramedics/Emergency Medical Technicians. Does the public want our Firefighter Emergency Medical Responders to understand only 60 percent of the medical training they get? Roughly 80% of all calls for all fire departments are medical calls. I hope the public wakes up. Frankly I don’t care what your skin color is as long as you are competent when rescuing me or my family!
And just a few more subjects today’s firefighters must be experts in:
High Angle Rescue
Urban Search and Rescue
Confined Space Rescue
Auto Extrication
Weapons of Mass Destruction
Wildland Firefighting
Aircraft Crash and Rescue
There are many more, but my point is that in today’s world just fighting fires is only a small part of the job. It’s an extremely technical job requiring strong critical thinking. Dumb down the tests and someone is going to be killed!!!!
LaShawn said: “I suppose such tests are difficult for some people.”
I agree, and want to add: Isn’t that the point? The MCATs and LSATs are difficult for some people. That’s the whole point of these tests – to screen for people with an aptitude for certain types of thinking and skills. That does not make them “racist” as the DOJ is arguing.
Point taken!
– Admin
19. I’d like to see you comment on this, LaShawn:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070524/ts_alt_afp/uspoliticsracism_070524134732
Comment by ddennis — 05.24.07 @ 12:25 pm
***************************
Racial demons resurface with nooses on Louisiana tree
I don’t know if La Shawn will comment on it or not but I will, I am FROM Louisiana and all I can say to this is, ignorance abounds…
There has always been a great divide in the ‘deep south’ and I have no idea what it will take to close that divide but racism is everywhere, and it exists in all races, in one form or another…
One of these days people will celebrate the differences, but until everyone, and I mean EVERYONE is on a level playing field in regards to racial equality, it won’t happen…
And La Shawn’s post today points this out very well, no one should be accepted to ANY position simply because they are a minority, of any sort…
And they shouldn’t be accepted just because they’re NOT a minority, the most well qualified people need to placed in the position, and if others don’t have the personal motivation to achieve their goals, too bad, study more and work harder, if it’s worth having, it’s worth working FOR, but NEVER lower the standards, for anyone…
I failed an aptitude test for dentistry during my senior year of high school. Everyone who might potentially have been a victi… er, I mean a patient of Dr. RedBeard should be very grateful that I was weeded out before I could become the Steve Martin dentist character in Little Shop of Horrors.
Some people shouldn’t be dentists. Some shouldn’t be firefighters.
I’m going to have to go with Bill and Shade on this one. Nowhere in the text is there any mention of directionality in the location of the fire. While the reporter should be as specific as possible and give as many pertinent details as possible, one cannot assume the fire is in the southeast corner based on the information given. The correct answer is #D.
We definitely should NOT dumb down tests in order to allow people to pass. On the other hand, I do think that everyone should be trained in how to approach a test, and how to think through a test. We do need to be sure that everyone is coming to the table with that skill in hand, so that the test taker’s mastery of the content can truly be tested.
Not you, too, batyah. Come on, I know you’re sharper than this. See Update II; you may reconsider your answer. – Admin
Bill #20
You are absolutely right. Without clarifying instructions you have a rather flawed question. And I have conquered standardized tests for over 20 years. The question asks testers to assume information not specified in the question and that is genenerally not recommended.
You are also correct in that there is no subtext to my statement. I was making an observation about the test question that is unrelated to the notion of the test being racist.
Taking a second look at the question and also LaShawn’s SUPER SNARKY chastisement of all of us who found ambiguity in it . . . I do see her point. But if the test writer had in mind for the test taker to ASSUME information for which there is NO suggestion, then that is a poor decision on the part of the test writer. Additional clues could have been given as to directionality that would have required the test taker to make deductions that led him to conclude the fire was in the southeastern corner (without directly telling him it was in the southeastern corner). But for the test taker to just create that information out of thin air seems like an odd expectation. We were always taught that we could only use the information given in the text OR make deductions BASED UPON INFO IN THE TEXT.
LaShawn, if you are correct, then this is definitely NOT an SAT style test!!!!! Because in the SATs, one would be expected to make deductions, yes, but based only upon information given. Adding information is a sure way to get the question wrong.
While this looks insance, I wanat to point out that it has been a long-standing practice among “professional” groups to get the states to mandate tests a person must pass to practice. In that case, the obvious and only rationale (never admitted) is precisely to keep lower classes from competing and undercutting business. See Walter Williams _The State Against Blacks_ for details.
Again, I don’t think that is the case here (where the issue is an employers own decision anyway, not a law about all private businesses), but I do want people to realize that it has happened and probably still does.
Hey Super Snark,
I just saw your “et tu, Brutus?” comment. You must have been sending me vibes while I was composing!
>> We were always taught that we could only use the information given in the text OR make deductions BASED UPON INFO IN THE TEXT.>>
Maybe the test had a drawing with info that was supposed to be used in the answers?
Okay, okay, I’ve got it! I’m TOO SMART for this test!
On a serious note, I do see your point, LaShawn. Maybe some of us were overthinking it.
In light of all this, I’m changing my vote: I think we should dumb down the test so that I can pass it.
Just to be clear, I posted the update before you commented. Just wanted to make sure you saw it.
It directed to the two dudes. – Admin
#10:
Thanks Rodney, for showing beyond doubt how whites are better equipped to be firefighters than blacks because of their white attitudes.
I picked “letter” D too. If I was shown a video of Capt. Green going through the building and locating the fire, then asked where was the fire found; without knowing the orientation of the building, I could not say it was the southeast corner.
In addition, the scenario stated “at the rear of the basement”, not necessarily “in” the rear. Some basements are partially or, if you have a “New Orleans Basement” ( a term used in N.O.), completely above ground.
But you don’t NEED to know the orientation of the building or the fire! The question asks for an exact location, and among the choices, C, and no other, gives an exact location. The word “exact” tips you off. There is nothing ambiguous about it. You don’t need to know every possible bit of information to deduce that the answer is C. I’m getting a headache… – Admin
I have read your blogs for about a year and agree with your common sense knowledge and approach you take on your blogs. But now, for the first time I have to comment on the common thread baseline liberal views I see running in the MSM is that Liberals appear to have too much time on there hands to dream up with these comments and ideas. This time could be better spent, more productive and less costly had they learn, study, experience and discuss the topic before they come up with some knee jerk reaction to smooth things over and not look at the big picture.
I vote for ambiguity being a GOOD thing. As La Shawn stated in her original post, reasoning is the key.
My senior year English teacher in high school was a fantastic teacher. She was prone to giving us period-long essay tests with one question, something like this: “Twain vs. Dickens; explain and expound. You have 45 minutes.” Talk about non-specific. But the good lady made us all THINK and LEARN.
Let my restate my point this way. Answer this: From all of the information given, is it possible that Answer C is wrong?
From all of the information given, is it possible that Answer D is wrong?
After you’ve answered these questions, tell me what is the best answer.
LaShawn, do you have the official answer? (I really hate to argue with you because I really love you and your larger point is spot on).
I linked to the official answer in the post. – Admin
OK, I got the right answer. But after 20 years of taking military tests, I got a little edge on these typer of “best answer” tests. First it asks for the “exact location”, then it asks for the best way to report the info. So I figured the answer has to have “corner and basement” which is why I would have chosen C.
Just my take from many years of experience in test taking, but I agree that a much less experienced person would pick D.
Bottom line is that the same test was given to every applicant. So who was treated unfairly, and how did it become racially unfair.
Last, can the applicants re-apply and take the test again. At least the next time they would have a better idea of what to expect.
But Redbeard, this is not a question in which the ambiguity makes you think harder. There is nothing difficult about concluding that “southeastern corner” is more exact and specific than “rear of basement” but the point is, that info was not given in the text nor was any information given to lead one to that conclusion, other than “it’s most specific.” Are test takers supposed to assume that ANY specific information found in an answer is therefore the correct information? Perhaps the question should have included this sentence: “Capt. Green saw the winter morning sun shining in the window over the location of the fire.” heh heh heh THAT would have required some deductive reasoning.
Comment by JohnD — 05.24.07 @ 2:07 pm
My assertion that qualified Blacks do not want to become firefighters means whites are better equipped? Yes that is exactly what I said. Brilliant!
It seems people of any color can have poor reading comprehension skills…
Gecko, boooo, hiss. Do I have to ask you about those who assume? Less experienced with tests? I’ve taken some tests in my life. I have an MBA and I passed the CPA test in one sitting.
Rodney, with due respect , you stated exactly that whites have a ‘certain outlook’ that makes them more suited to firefighting.
I quote:
“Listen jobs like firefighting carry with then a certain ethos, a certain outlook on life. Whites compete for those job (sic), it is a tradition.”
So are you, or are you not saying that whites are more suited to firefighting than blacks, for whom it is just ‘a job’?
And where are your figures/references to support
skin-colour = competitive ethos?
My reading skills are fine, and I’d like to read more on how ‘white tradition’ is suited to firefighting. Any links?
Regards,
JohnD
Okay, hubby is weighing in here. He’s Mr. Logic. While he agrees with my team that IN GENERAL, one does not assume information not given in the text (unless it is basic knowledge, like, gravity exists, for example) and that therefore the test question IS poorly written, he ultimately sides with LaShawn for these reasons:
1) What is the rear of the building? Do we know what the rear is? Is it the opposite side from the entrance? Or the opposite side from the street? What if there are two entrances? What if the building is sandwiched between two streets? In essence, “rear” is in itself and by itself too ambiguous to be correct unless there is further clarification of the location of the fire. The question is really begging for an unambiguous N/S/E/W answer.
2) We should assume that Capt. Green is not going to write down the wrong corner in his report.
3) The text is asking for two things: a corner and a basement. Only #C gives these.
4) “Southeastern corner” is present in two answers and probably wouldn’t be if it were not meant to be taken as valid data.
Hubby says we both have good points and should each see the other side and play nice now.
Seem to be a whole lot of tangents and near-misses-of-the-point flying around in this topic.
Redbeard, are you accusing me of tangentializing?
Nice sound effects Bill. Also, thanks for all the credentials. I’m a high school drop out, only made it to the tenth grade.
So if you and I took the same test for a CPA, you would do better than me, based on your experience.
Again, my question is if if we are both given the same test, how can I say the test was unfair or racially biased?
I meant Tangelos. Yeah, that’s it. I love tangelos.
[RedBeard slinks out of room]
Batyah’s Hubby, we’re playing nice. In fact, this is a fun diversion (I hope no one is reading any animus in my writings; there is none).
Now Hubbster; you didn’t answer my questions in post #38. We’ll wait for you (cue Jeapordy music).
(cue Jeapordy music).
My bad. Spelling wasn’t needed for the CPA test.
These posts are coming fast and furious. Gecko, I agree with your main point 100%. Sorry about posting the credentials. I hate elitism and my post smacks of it. I didn’t intend it that way.
I think that’s Jeopardy, Bill! (And no, he didn’t think we were fighting; he was just making a silly remark.)
You asked:
From all of the information given, is it possible that Answer C is wrong?
From all of the information given, is it possible that Answer D is wrong?
He’s on a business call at the moment so can’t pose these to him, but I suspect he would readily agree that you have a good point — it is absolutely possible that C is wrong, but not possible that D is wrong, since we already know from the text that the fire is in the basement rear. I think, however, that the question doesn’t really warrant the level of logic and wariness that you, and I, and Shade were putting into it. We are used to “tricks” in more intricate logic questions and this question is not really a logic question so much as a simplistic (although badly written) reading comprehension question. It is really only asking us if we can determine that “southeastern” is more exact than “rear.” Frankly, I find that SO dumb that it’s surprising this is a test question that determines whether firefighters make it or not. I think all of us had a problem accepting that it could really only be asking that.
You have to base you answer only on the information given in the scenario. Listing it as the “southeast corner” is as arbitrary as if Capt. Green has stated that “it was the only room painted pink”. It might be the only room painted pink and it might have been Mary Elizabeth’s bedroom which is very specific and more detailed, but how could you answer that from the scenario?
The bad news is that if the tests are dumbed down, the firefighters will not know how to use a compass, site plan or any other means to determine the orientation of the building and would never know to put out the fire in the southeast corner of the building.
I have sympathy for the “not making assumptions view” because it tripped me up in algebra. Why are “assume” X=9? What’s that based on? Still, I figured for this test you had to eliminate any answer that did not include both the corner and the basement.
I think this test is written without including the orientation of the stairs in relation to the corner because in an emergency you might not have all the information, and you have to use your best reasoning and make assumptions based on what little you have. For that reason I see even less justification for the DOJ to be upset about this. I wish we could cut budgets for every time a bureaucrat comes up with something stupid like this lawsuit. They obviously have more of our money than they can handle.
I just made a statement that is as erroneous as I stated that the test answer was. Just because someone can not pass the current test without it being dumbed down does not mean that they cannot use a compass or other means to determine the orientation and it does not mean that everyone who passes the test can. My apologies to those people who can do either or both and maybe to those who can do neither.
Bill, hubby says that the question did not ask for the correct answer, which would imply that there are incorrect answers given as options; the question asked for the most exact answer, which implies that all the answers have some degree of correctness but your task is to find the “best” answer. That is why you can then accept new data that is given in the questions, even though this is not normally the standard procedure in analyzing test questions/answers. Also, in his opinion, “rear” is problematic for the reason he gave above and also because rear would seem to mean that space between the corners, rather than corners themselves. A corner is such a specific location that to NOT indicate which corner could never be an accurate report.
I respect hubby (and LaShawn), but I stand with my teammates in protest of badly written exam questions!
Does this mean that if I ever call the fire department in NYC I should request the WHITE firemen? Or, if I am heavily insured and already removed the irreplaceable keepsakes and the cat should I call and ask for the BLACK firemen?
Redbeard made me nervous for a second when I remembered that my doctor is a black female. Then I remembered that as a female in a traditionally male profession I always felt driven to work twice as hard to prove myself. I think that my doctor probably felt driven in the same way. No doubt as a black woman I am sure she felt at least double this pressure to succeed. As a member of one of highest ranked practices in the area, I am sure that the other doctors made sure she was tops in the field before inviting her to join their practice. (I certainly thought this when I made the appointment and was given to the new doctor — sight unseen. I was also told only the last name when the appointment was made — so I didn’t know ahead of time gender either.)
Should I think that they hired a woman of color to round out their all white, all male practice as some affirmative action exercise?
Gee, up until now I really liked and trusted this doctor, she has one of the best bedside manners I’ve ever experienced. Should I now second guess her diagnosis because she is black? Or a female?
No, I am going to assume that with something as precious as human lives that only qualified applicants would make it through medical school.
Hummmm, something as precious as human life — now exactly what is it that firemen do? Enter burning buildings to save lives?
Well, according to the fire department, the correct answer is “C.” Perhaps “minorities” fail the test at higher rates because they see more ambiguity.
#57, Not only do they enter burning buildings, but in many departments they do water rescue in ponds, rivers, swimming pools, etc. Is there a swimming test given? That would be fun to watch.
All this talk about race, qualifications, discrimination, and lawsuits is making my head swim. Could we all please just get back to talking about the test question? Thank you in advance.
Bill, be proud of your accomplishments. No elitism taken from your comments. You worked hard to get what you have and should not have to apologize for any of it.
Many good points here and I made the mistake of “assuming” that C was the correct answer. What I should have said is that I think C is the best answer, and that is what I would have chosen in the test.
Batyah, agree with your comments about poorly written questions. But here is the crux of the matter: The DOJ is going to sue the city to makke the NYFD “end “policies and practices that discriminate against blacks and Hispanics and that deprive (them) of employment opportunities because of race and/or national origin.â€
The issue here is not a poorly written question or two, the DOJ is looking into the possibility that the NYFD is giving an unfair or racially biased test. Yet they have no proof of this.
RaLph quips:
“Is there a swimming test given? That would be fun to watch.”
And that would be ‘fun’ because ?….
“it has been a long-standing practice among “professional†groups to get the states to mandate tests a person must pass to practice. In that case, the obvious and only rationale (never admitted) is precisely to keep lower classes from competing and undercutting business.”
Obvious and only rationale, my chocolate butt.
If you can’t pass the bar, you shouldn’t practice law. If you can’t pass your boards, you shouldn’t be a doctor.
Changed Life, I don’t think Redbeard said anything demeaning about black professionals, did he? LaShawn is making a valid point that minorities should not be given preferential treatment when it comes to admissions or exams, that’s all.
I’m glad that you have a wonderful doctor. I worked in a teaching hospital as a nurse for 14 years and saw lots of doctors of all races/religions/classes come and go. I am happy to be able to say that I never noticed any “affirmative action babies” among the black med students or doctors that I worked with. But I do have to take issue with your statement that “only qualified applicants would make it through medical school.” Unfortunately, there are people who manage to get through medical school and even residency who really should not be entrusted with human lives. That isn’t to say that they aren’t smart, only that it takes a special blend of various characteristics to be a safe and competent doctor. Don’t assume that because someone has an MD behind their name, they are automatically “qualified.” Even with the good ones, it’s always a good idea to pray for your doctor whenever you need him or her to be really, really on top of things!
Bill, be proud of your accomplishments. No elitism taken from your comments. You worked hard to get what you have and should not have to apologize for any of it.
I made the mistake of “assuming” that C was the correct answer. What I should have said is that I think C is the best answer, and that is what I would have chosen in the test.
I believe race is at the crux of this discussion.
The DOJ demands that the FDNY end “policies and practices that discriminate against blacks and Hispanics and that deprive (them) of employment opportunities because of race and/or national origin.â€
The issue here is not a poorly written question or two, the DOJ is looking into the possibility that the NYFD is giving an unfair or racially biased test. Yet they have no proof of this.
Obviously if there is a real issue of racial or other discriminatory practice then I say the DOJ should proceed to prosecute
La Shawn, I hope you don’t think I’m stupid, but until I read the answer which you posted, I wasn’t sure if the answer was B or C. I would have thought “lower level” was more specific than “basement”. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t confused because I’m brown, but I do have beyond a college education – though I’ve been out of school for years now.
Gecko, I know. I’ve been a bit silly tonight and have not really been discussing the larger issue at hand.
This is an awesome exercise! This really gives us a chance to explore how people view things differently. With regard to disparities in standardized test scores among the races, it’s really neat to find out what our deduction process is when determining the correct answer.
I read the question once, and immediately chose ‘D’. I’m the same person who scored 1320 on the SAT in the 11th grade. I’ve always excelled on tests, so getting this simple question wrong caught me off guard!
I also excel at following instructions. This leads me to believe that if I was present for the test and heard the test proctor actually state that “we are to choose the answer that gives the “most detailed information“, I wouldn’t have been focusing on which answer was correct solely based on the info we were given in the passage.
Now that I think about it, we really don’t even need to read the passage if all we have to do is look at a group of answers and choose which of them is formed in a way that gives the most detailed information. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
Yeah, Tami! Another one for our team!
(Sorry LaShawn, I never give up, even when I’ve lost.)
Tami makes a spectacular point (the fact that it supports my position is irrelevant). If the test asked for the most detailed answer then all the test would need is the answer set (“Pick the most detailed of the following answersâ€) In that case answer C is the most detailed and therefore the correct answer. But it doesn’t. It gives a fact set.
Tami, you’re OK in my book!
Whoops, I was thinking about it and I think I just understood it. I still feel stupid though. I probably would have gotten that question wrong, had I gone into the test cold. It does make me wonder.
In 1965 or 66, my Dad’s employer sent him to a conference in Detroit about the effects of the racial preference laws on businesses.
The conclusion was: From now on, every hiring, firing, promotion and assignment decision will be grounds for litigation.
Within 5 years every large Americn manufacturing company was looking to relocate to countries where they could hire on the basis of qualifications rather than racial preference.
An added factor for out sourcing is that no matter how much a company bows to EEOC directives to hire minorities there are always attorneys lurking about ready to file frivilous, extortionate law suits. A few years ago, the NAACP filed a law suit against the Post Office which seems to hire nothing but blacks.
La Shawn,
Qualified minorities are in demand not only in the fire departments but in other areas as well. You are risking your life as a firefighter and that risk adds a premium to salaries for those who have other choices so I think that may one ingredient of the reason why FDNY is not hiring more minority applicants. Also I have been hearing about the shortage of black firefighters since 1995!
I took the San Francisco Police Department Exam in 1981. The Department had been subject to a Judge’s supervision since 1972 re failure of blacks to pass the written test.
This is the test the Federal EEOC and Justice Department forced on the Department.
Because so many blacks (not asians or hispanics) had failed the written test the Feds ordered the Department to create a test that could be passed without the ability to read.
HERE IS THE TEST
We saw a video of a crime with several victims, several perpetrators and several bystanders.
Then a recording played the questions and answers. Test takers did not even have to be able to read the questions.
” Q. Was the store clerk
(A) An older white man
(B) An older black man
(C) A young white woman
(D) A young black woman
Q. Did the shooter wear
(A) A red shirt
(B) A white shirt
(C) A beard
(D) A hat.”
That was the written test. The recording even said
“If you think the shooter wore a red shirt fill in the circle in front of letter A etc.
One thought about immigration, including the Burdindians coming here as refugees. Almost all immigrants are Hispanic, Asain or African.
Everyone of them and their children and grandchildren is entitled to a racial preference job.If you are white, our Federal governent will order employers to not hire you, your children and grandchildren.
Here in Los Angeles almost all the government employees under the age of 60 are some variety of racial preference immigrant.
It is especially disgusting that they fill all the social service type jobs. They come from countries where there is no social service net whatsoever.
But once here, they get a life long tenure job in the unemployment or welfare office while white and black Americans whose families have been here 400 years are out of work.
Perhaps the question is meant to filter out those who overthink and issue and cannot make a decision. Making life or death decisions is part of a firefighters job, not taking tests.
There I go again trying to be a smart @ss. I meant to write “overthink an issue”
Thank you Tyrian for telling The Truth. This type of garbage also negates any incentives to study in school. You wonder why people do not study in school, cut up and disturb the classes.
I picked C based on an old test taking strategy that I learned in school, which says that the answer is always one of two similar answers. For that, B and C fit the bill, but C is better because it’s closer to the information in the text. However, if B were a different answer, I would have picked D.
Perhaps, as said earlier, this test is measuring for a certain aptitude that is related to being a fire fighter. I don’t think that it’s anything more than that. Perhaps, instead of viewing changing the test as “dumbing down”, we can say that they are just taking “another” look at the relevancy of the questions in picking the best applicants.
Blacks and other minorities who don’t score as high as white applicants on the SAT are still going on to earn college degrees. So what are we measuring, or are we just playing an “elitist” game?
Ignorant, MArgaret.
#62, That would be fun for me because I would be amused and entertained.
For more amusement and entertainment I would appreciate it if La Shawn would post some more questions from the test. Hopefully nobody has to find a pool and swim to figure out the answer.
When I first looked at the question, it was obvious that there was not enough info to determine whether the answer was correct or not and so, I determined that the question would not ask something that could not be answered. To me, the question became what response has the greatest amount of information that also comports with the facts that were given. Ergo C was the answer.
Information was provided in more than one way. While we did not have enough information within the detailing of the site, we have the information that was provided within the structural aspect of the question itself.
As for fireman, I want them to be burly enough to actually carry grown men out of burning buildings and I want them smart enough to understand the physics/chemistry of pyrotechnics. I want tests that will ensure both.
You missed another article in the NYT that had simular charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/nyregion/22cops.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=all
A Race for Jobs in Police Depts. On Long Island
“After complaints that earlier tests — which, like the SAT, emphasized cognitive skills — favored white men, officials in both counties said they had drawn new exams by interviewing top-performing officers of diverse backgrounds and devising questions in hopes of finding similar candidates.
Allen Hartvik, chief of examinations for Suffolk County’s Civil Service Commission, said this year’s test was prepared by a consulting firm and focuses on biographical questions about the applicant. Nassau’s test has multiple choice and true/false questions addressing “work, school and general life experiences that are associated with successful performance of law enforcement duties†and “personality traits that are associated with successful performance of law enforcement duties,†according to the description the department posted online.â€
La Shawn said: But, alas, others on this board don’t think it’s that clear cut. Good lord. I suppose such tests are difficult for some people.
And that is the exact purpose of the test: to weed out the folks for whom this sort of question is difficult. What good is a test if it is so dumbed down that everybody passes it?
That was a rhetorical question, La Shawn. I completely agree with you on this issue; and, for the record, I chose C!
D is definitely wrong because it omits the important detail of which corner. C *might* be wrong if the guy can’t tell north from south, but it’s the only answer that might be right.
“I don’t believe it. Would you believe that some people commenting on this post think the sample question is ambiguous? ”
Too funny La Shawn.
I guess direction and the importance of precise location is not taught in schools anymore…silly us:-)
Clearly Renee, you don’t have a very good grasp of test taking.
Wouldn’t the person with the good grasp of test taking be the one who “gets the answers right”?
The one with a good grasp of test taking can see the flaw in the question as opposed to embracing an answer without question solely because it was already given.
Thank you, Shade. I think those of us who see the flaw in the question itself have proven that we ARE critical thinkers and intelligent test-takers; moreover, we have explained our reasoning behind why we think the question itself is flawed, based on our vast collective experience with academic multiple choice tests. I don’t know why it is so hard for others to see that when the text provided IS NOT EVEN NECESSARY in order to answer the question, there is an inherent problem with the question! (thanks to Tami in #68 for pointing this out) This particular question does nothing to weed out the unqualified; it merely weeds out those who did well on their SATs!
Batyah, Shade
I don’t see the “flaw” in the question/answer so to speak. The question cleary states “The best way for Capt. Green”. Not the easiest, the BEST WAY.
If I asked you to walk on the left hand side of the street, could you do it? Would it guarantee that you were on the West side of the street? Depending on which side of the street you’re starting on or the direction that you’re looking, this can change.
SouthEast will always be….well…SouthEast!!
This is not an SAT type question where we eliminate one or two of the answers based upon something. Common sense wins out on the test here
“Wouldn’t the person with the good grasp of test taking be the one who “gets the answers rightâ€?”
Jan, that assumes that the test is well written and conforms to the rules of test writing, which this question does not. I understand my husband’s view on this, which I’ve explained above, so I do “get” why people chose #C. What I don’t get, though, is why the test writer, who should be an expert, thought he had written a good question. Generally, in these types of tests, relevant data required to make a decision is not omitted from the test question, and then given in the test answer! In this case, the “data” was also the “answer.” That is a poorly constructed test question. Does that make sense?
When I was in college, we had an instructor who wrote multiple choice exams supposedly in the manner that the nursing licensure exam was written. Her good intention was to get us accustomed to that style of exam. However, she did not know how to write tests, and furthermore, her questions were often grammatically incorrect! She sometimes used double negatives, for example. We all found ourselves concentrating more on understanding her style of flawed thinking than on the content of the exam! We had to do that in order to be able to answer the questions “correctly.” Eventually a group of us took examples of the exams to the Dean, who had to admit that perhaps her instructors needed a course in test writing.
A good exam tests the student’s knowledge of the content and ability to reason based on the data given; a good exam does not confound the student, forcing him to concentrate on the idiosyncrasies of the test writer’s mind.
Oops the building has burned to the ground. Now what was the question again?
Again, the real issue isn’t whether or not the question was worded poorly. Well worded or poorly worded, every job candidate had to deal with the exact same question.
A poorly worded question would be expected to cause trouble for all people. This would mean that the average test score might be a point or two lower than it would be with a better question, but it would be a point or two lower for every equally intelligent and qualified job candidate.
Let’s say there was a question on the test that asked for the best action in response to a kitchen fire. And let’s say the answer choices are A) Blue, B) 65, C) Uncle Harry, and D) All of the above. Now, would anyone out of a group of equally intelligent and qualified applicants have an advantage over the others in answering that question?
The quality of the question is an interesting subject, one that could be debated and studied extensively, and perhaps should be. But it’s definitely not the subject of La Shawn’s original post.
Harry, you’re right that it isn’t an SAT type question and that common sense dictates that the answer should be something specific. That’s why I totally understand why people answered #C and they were right in the end; that’s what the test writer wanted. But I only know SAT type multiple choice exams so even though #C sounded good in a way, I thought “this must be a trick, because no clues concerning direction were mentioned in the text.”
And now, I am getting really sick of seeing my comments on this subject and can only imagine that others are sick of me too (if you are, please don’t say so; I have feelings, you know), so will shut up now.
Shade;
Shade: I actually did not know what the answer was because I was sent the question by a friend as I was at work.
I have sent the test out to numerous individuals. More answered C than D (60-40). Each was asked to provide their reasoning and EACH noted the “southeast corner” conundrum and noted that they then looked at the structural element of the question itself.
So, Shade, your assumption that everyone simply mindlessly embraced C because it was provided is, well, the product of your imagination.
Batyah;
This is fun…
We are not being asked about accuracy, we are being asked about the best way to write a report.
I’ve been on the FDNY for going on 22 years…and even the written exam that I took (given in 1982) was a joke. One question I’ll never forget was four views of a typical gauge (like a car’s gas gauge) – 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full and the question asked was, “Which one is closest to full?”
I remember thinking, “Anyone who could get a question like that wrong shouldn’t be driving, in fact, they probably shouldn’t be walking around unescorted.” Most of the other questions weren’t much more challenging.
It’s a disgrace for anyone to insinuate that higher standrads discriminate against ANY ethnic group. It’s akin to endorsing the innate inferiority of that group, but that’s apparently the road the Vulcans (the FDNY’s black fraternity) has chosen to go down.
There are also women’s groups who’ve successfully fought against the physical standards so now the FDNY has a PASS/FAIL physical!
A PASS/FAIL physical for a very physically demanding job! Niiiiice!!!
Bottom-line, standards are MEANT to discriminate.
They discriminate in favor of those who prepare for, are the most motivated and the most fit. And that’s who we should want on police and fire departments. Both jobs require instantaneous life & death judgments and both jobs require an above level of physcial fitness and skill levels.
Especially post-9/11, shouldn’t quality concerns take precedence over all other concerns?
Seeing this makes me very glad that I’m approaching the end of the line on my career. I’ve had a lot of fun. I worked in the South Bronx for 19 years and the last 3 in a HazMat Unit…I’ve seen enough.
I wish the city of NY the best with all this…it’s not going to be pretty. You don’t diminish quality (lowering standards is intended to do that) without some very ugly consequences.
I easily picked out C…. as most people would (I hope). It was clear to me.
I’m not too sure that the Black applicants have much of a case. When dealing with matters involving public safety, this sort of process is normal and important. Now there have been cases where questions have been designed to specifically keep certain groups out…. but I don’t see that here. The sample question was basic enough.
Now what the NYFD could do is team up with the Junior College systems in the area to offer courses in fire science, test taking, report writing, etc… and possibly exempt those people who have degrees or who have completed a certain number of hours in a program designed to improve those kinds of skills. That could be a compromise…
But without something like that… IMO these questions are not unreasonable.
I don’t think that a court will even hear this case all the way through. My guess is that either a compromise (acceptable to both sides) will be reached, or the case will be dismissed.
This is the standard procedure all across the country.
And firefighting has gotten more complex over the years, with firefighters being required to also become EMT’s. And the equipment is more complex as well.
In addition, firefighters also have to understand how to deal with hazmat…and MSDS information (which I can tell you from experience can be tricky).
And fire science in general is complex…
Fire Departments and police departments want to be sure about a candidate before hiring them because the fire/police academies require considerable academic study (at times). If these guys can’t get through the entrance exam, then they would probably have a hard time with the written exams that they have to take as part of their academy training (and those tests are usually much more difficult).
Thank you, Shade. I think those of us who see the flaw in the question itself have proven that we ARE critical thinkers and intelligent test-takers
Exactly. I am likewise used to SAT type tests. But what I sense is the tendency for folks to try and label folks who see the flaw as dumb.
redbeard:
I understand what you are saying. Basically we have gone off topic. I’m not using that question to show any unfairness to any ethnic group. I believe that some, if not most, of the folks on here who see the question as flawed are white.
And note that seeing the flaw in a question does not mean that the question was answered wrong. I never indicated what I believed the right or wrong answer was.
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