Exactly. I am likewise used to SAT type tests. But what I sense is the tendency for folks to try and label folks who see the flaw as dumb.

redbeard:

I understand what you are saying. Basically we have gone off topic. I’m not using that question to show any unfairness to any ethnic group. I believe that some, if not most, of the folks on here who see the question as flawed are white.

I’m not too sure that the Black applicants have much of a case. When dealing with matters involving public safety, this sort of process is normal and important. Now there have been cases where questions have been designed to specifically keep certain groups out…. but I don’t see that here. The sample question was basic enough.

Now what the NYFD could do is team up with the Junior College systems in the area to offer courses in fire science, test taking, report writing, etc… and possibly exempt those people who have degrees or who have completed a certain number of hours in a program designed to improve those kinds of skills. That could be a compromise…

But without something like that… IMO these questions are not unreasonable.

I don’t think that a court will even hear this case all the way through. My guess is that either a compromise (acceptable to both sides) will be reached, or the case will be dismissed.

This is the standard procedure all across the country.

And firefighting has gotten more complex over the years, with firefighters being required to also become EMT’s. And the equipment is more complex as well.

In addition, firefighters also have to understand how to deal with hazmat…and MSDS information (which I can tell you from experience can be tricky).

And fire science in general is complex…

Fire Departments and police departments want to be sure about a candidate before hiring them because the fire/police academies require considerable academic study (at times). If these guys can’t get through the entrance exam, then they would probably have a hard time with the written exams that they have to take as part of their academy training (and those tests are usually much more difficult).

I remember thinking, “Anyone who could get a question like that wrong shouldn’t be driving, in fact, they probably shouldn’t be walking around unescorted.” Most of the other questions weren’t much more challenging.

It’s a disgrace for anyone to insinuate that higher standrads discriminate against ANY ethnic group. It’s akin to endorsing the innate inferiority of that group, but that’s apparently the road the Vulcans (the FDNY’s black fraternity) has chosen to go down.

There are also women’s groups who’ve successfully fought against the physical standards so now the FDNY has a PASS/FAIL physical!

A PASS/FAIL physical for a very physically demanding job! Niiiiice!!!

Bottom-line, standards are MEANT to discriminate.

They discriminate in favor of those who prepare for, are the most motivated and the most fit. And that’s who we should want on police and fire departments. Both jobs require instantaneous life & death judgments and both jobs require an above level of physcial fitness and skill levels.

Especially post-9/11, shouldn’t quality concerns take precedence over all other concerns?

Seeing this makes me very glad that I’m approaching the end of the line on my career. I’ve had a lot of fun. I worked in the South Bronx for 19 years and the last 3 in a HazMat Unit…I’ve seen enough.

I wish the city of NY the best with all this…it’s not going to be pretty. You don’t diminish quality (lowering standards is intended to do that) without some very ugly consequences.

Shade: I actually did not know what the answer was because I was sent the question by a friend as I was at work.

I have sent the test out to numerous individuals. More answered C than D (60-40). Each was asked to provide their reasoning and EACH noted the “southeast corner” conundrum and noted that they then looked at the structural element of the question itself.

So, Shade, your assumption that everyone simply mindlessly embraced C because it was provided is, well, the product of your imagination.

Batyah;
This is fun…
We are not being asked about accuracy, we are being asked about the best way to write a report.

And now, I am getting really sick of seeing my comments on this subject and can only imagine that others are sick of me too (if you are, please don’t say so; I have feelings, you know), so will shut up now.

A poorly worded question would be expected to cause trouble for all people. This would mean that the average test score might be a point or two lower than it would be with a better question, but it would be a point or two lower for every equally intelligent and qualified job candidate.

Let’s say there was a question on the test that asked for the best action in response to a kitchen fire. And let’s say the answer choices are A) Blue, B) 65, C) Uncle Harry, and D) All of the above. Now, would anyone out of a group of equally intelligent and qualified applicants have an advantage over the others in answering that question?

The quality of the question is an interesting subject, one that could be debated and studied extensively, and perhaps should be. But it’s definitely not the subject of La Shawn’s original post.

Jan, that assumes that the test is well written and conforms to the rules of test writing, which this question does not. I understand my husband’s view on this, which I’ve explained above, so I do “get” why people chose #C. What I don’t get, though, is why the test writer, who should be an expert, thought he had written a good question. Generally, in these types of tests, relevant data required to make a decision is not omitted from the test question, and then given in the test answer! In this case, the “data” was also the “answer.” That is a poorly constructed test question. Does that make sense?

When I was in college, we had an instructor who wrote multiple choice exams supposedly in the manner that the nursing licensure exam was written. Her good intention was to get us accustomed to that style of exam. However, she did not know how to write tests, and furthermore, her questions were often grammatically incorrect! She sometimes used double negatives, for example. We all found ourselves concentrating more on understanding her style of flawed thinking than on the content of the exam! We had to do that in order to be able to answer the questions “correctly.” Eventually a group of us took examples of the exams to the Dean, who had to admit that perhaps her instructors needed a course in test writing.

A good exam tests the student’s knowledge of the content and ability to reason based on the data given; a good exam does not confound the student, forcing him to concentrate on the idiosyncrasies of the test writer’s mind.

I don’t see the “flaw” in the question/answer so to speak. The question cleary states “The best way for Capt. Green”. Not the easiest, the BEST WAY.

If I asked you to walk on the left hand side of the street, could you do it? Would it guarantee that you were on the West side of the street? Depending on which side of the street you’re starting on or the direction that you’re looking, this can change.

SouthEast will always be….well…SouthEast!!

This is not an SAT type question where we eliminate one or two of the answers based upon something. Common sense wins out on the test here