It warmed by heart to read about the federal government doing the job it’s charged with: executing immigration laws. Heartwarming is a strange way to describe it, but there you go.
You probably remember reading about a raid at Howard Industries, a transformer plant in Laurel, Mississippi, last week. Close to 600 illegal aliens were arrested in what’s being called “the largest single-workplace immigration raid in U.S. history.”
I’ve blogged reams about this issue. While I sympathize with people trying to feed their kids and seek a better life, breaking the law is not the way to do it. There are rules and requirements, and it’s patently unfair to people waiting in line, so to speak, to enter and work in this country within the bounds of the law.
There was tension between legal and illegal workers, naturally, and some watching the raid applauded while others were being carted off. Legal workers were peeved that illegal aliens were being promoted to supervisory positions.
The company released a statement: “Howard Industries runs every check allowed to ascertain the immigration status of all applicants for jobs. It is company policy that it hires only U.S. citizens and legal immigrants.”
So how did so many illegal aliens slip through the cracks? The company uses E-Verify, a database that purportedly checks submitted info against government databases. Unfortunately, the databases can’t detect stolen Social Security numbers. Great plan! There’s an error rate, of course, but of the 600 people arrested, I think it’s safe to say that most are not authorized to work in the U.S. Hiring managers likely knew this but considered themselves covered since they’d run checks as required by law.
The point of the post is this: Apparently, hundreds of Americans, at least in Laurel, are willing to work when given a fair chance, contrary to what George Bush believes. They’re applying for jobs vacated by suspected illegal aliens.
I’ve read about Christians being “torn” over illegal immigration. Not this one. It’s not “un-Christian” to speak out against illegal “immigration” or try to stop it. It is un-Christian to claim to follow Christ while breaking the law and/or encouraging people to do the same, whether the law in question pertains to theft or jumping borders.
That’s pretty obvious and very simple, but some people insist on complicating it.
(Photo source: Erin Parker/Hattiesburg American)
LaShawn,
You bring up an issue that has been on my mind. So often, conservatives are condemned for a lack of charity when they are speaking against policies, behaviors, or muddle-headed comments. Hogwash!
Being outraged by the unintended/intended consequences of illegal immigration policy has nothing to do with a lack of compassion.
I am always struck by the incongruence of condemning people because one imagines they have condemned people. Apparently it makes sense to the compassion police.
Comment by jb — 09.03.08 @ 3:45 pm
EVERYONE needs to behave according to the WORD, an not according to secular ideology, and you wouldn’t be accused of anything.
Because when you don’t know it and all you know is what your favorite pet pundit says, then you deserve the criticism you get.
For example, the following chart is a liberal Christians view of how scripture can be applied to partisan ideology.
http://www.maplenet.net/~trowbridge/VotersGuide.htm
If you KNOW any scripture, you can and SHOULD BE ABLE, since so many are enthralled with how “clear”, “original”, and “principled” they are in FLESHLY matters, provide a “clear” “original” and “principled” line by line CONTEXTUAL rebuff of what that person has alleged.
The answer is NOT going to be that its “hogwash”, “misguided” “muddle-headed” or just plain “liberal”.
Who knows the Bible well enough to refute the claims on this chart - or IF someone this person has violated scripture by adding to Yahweh’s Words?
Because if you don’t, you have no room, EVER, to claim the high ground on how our conservative ideology is closer to Biblical truth than someone elses..and I’m not talking about NO BRAINERS like Abortion and Homosexuality and whine about the bad rap the conservative evangelicals get.
If all you know is some obscure layman’s apologetic to why one side is better for the Republic than the other, that is not good enough - if you are a disciple leaning anywhere towards Berean in purpose.
If you don’t know the Word, you CANNOT BE TRUSTED to defend Biblical principle in any context.
Comment by THEBIGDODDY — 09.03.08 @ 4:43 pm
I go for amnesty. They’re good people, they’ve worked hard. It’s the kind of people America needs.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.03.08 @ 8:09 pm
Obey the law. If the law is wrong, CHANGE the law. Applying the law capriciously causes widespread distrust of government.
When our borders are secure from this ongoing invasion, we can address rational immigration reform. When the boat is sinking, don’t argue about what water should be allowed to stay, PLUG THE DANG HOLE!
Comment by CorbinKale — 09.03.08 @ 8:25 pm
This topic is near and dear to my heart. I am all for people immigrating as long as they do it legally. The jobs illegal immigrants take from legal workers is just one piece of the problem though.
I have first hand experience with family members (by marriage) who have come into this country illegally, avoided paying taxes, used Medicaid and food stamps to feed and care for their children, and finally became legal citizens when they married Americans. I have been a very unpopular person with my family because I have spoken against what these individuals were doing.
I’m with you on this one. I am not torn in the least. Immigrants are welcome so long as they go through the correct process to come here legally and abide by the law.
Comment by Tiffany — 09.03.08 @ 8:31 pm
The primary victims of illegal “immigration” are legal immigrants.
I used to work in an unemployment office. When a factory would lay people off, those who would apply for benefits would be both citizens and illegals. The illegals made the same factory wage the citizens did, but they weren’t there to collect unemployment and register to find a job. They were there for an automatic disqualification so that they could collect welfare.
Not to mention the young gentleman who told me he was fired when the boss found out he was an American citizen.
Comment by Trish — 09.03.08 @ 10:19 pm
Arturo Fernandez,
I go to church with a Canadian man who has been married to an American for over 20 years and has been trying to become an American citizen for over 10 years. He’s been following the law.
When my friend at church becomes a US citizen–and not one minute before–THEN we can talk about letting the illegals getting amnesty, but I’d vote No. To do anything else would be a slap in the face to all the people who did or are trying to do it right.
Comment by SkyePuppy — 09.04.08 @ 10:34 am
I’m a bit lost at what BIGDODDY is pointing out here. Is he saying that the chart gives a proper view of what those cherry picked Scriptures are instructing us to do? Or is he pointing out the ignoring of context by the Democrat who posted that chart? Enlighten us, BIGDODDY.
Thanks.
Comment by Jonathan — 09.04.08 @ 11:36 am
Our immigration system is a mare’s nest. Our present visa system can not keep track of people. Our embassies are very good at lining up the people with applications for visas and immigration and keeping them in line. But our borders are porous and those who choose to walk across them and “blend in” are not subject to much of a challenge.
We say “illegal” immigrant as if it has meaning. Well, it is a misdemeanor under the laws of Congress and not against the laws of the states.
The whole “nation of immigrants” theme we praise with great fervor never included broken borders and a blind eye by government.
Once the borders are under control, we must take control of the immigration and visa program once more. That will include dealing with the 12 to 20 million already here. (How is that number known?)
I agree with Giuliani’s national identity card. If we can get something that is 85% effective, it will go a long way to getting a handle on our problem.
The MSM is poised to show the Elian Gonzales type stories of government swat teams pulling babies from the mother’s breast. Then there is the illegal immigrant who is some elderly citizen’s life line providing home care. You get the picture.
Compromise with principle and a certain dose of amnesty are in the cards.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.04.08 @ 11:55 am
Remember what Jesus said about the man who climbs in the window.
Comment by Trish — 09.04.08 @ 1:51 pm
“I’m a bit lost at what BIGDODDY is pointing out here. Is he saying that the chart gives a proper view of what those cherry picked Scriptures are instructing us to do? Or is he pointing out the ignoring of context by the Democrat who posted that chart? Enlighten us, BIGDODDY.”
I’m talking about a lot of things, but mainly what I wrote above in response to what jb and a few other say - in their OWN words, without a hint of Biblical support - are bad for the republic.
Lightweights attack symptoms, but the enemy haSatan destroys the foundation. If you have none, then you can’t resist or overcome him.
I’ve posted that chart on about 7 conservative Christian blogs and message boards asking if anyone know the Word enough to refute that allegations in that chart and all I’ve heard are the regurgitation of carnal and heathen pundits and not a single scripture. It’s embarrassing.
If being a conservative believer is really the ideal world-view in how this republic should be run, then you should have scripture to back it up, and if you don’t you can’t be trusted.
The Word trumps the carnality of Ann Coulter, Keith Olbermann or whomever other heathen pundit on Townhall or HuffPo that is relied on so much for comfort.
Comment by THEBIGDODDY — 09.04.08 @ 2:41 pm
Our family has first hand experience with immigration. Our son is married to a young lady from India. Her parents are here legally and they are awaiting paperwork to extend their stay. They have paid thousands of dollars to apply to be here legally. It would be very unfair to those people who have followed the law to let the illegals have amnesty.
Comment by Robin in New Jersey — 09.04.08 @ 4:53 pm
The BigDoddy,
Given your fidelity to the Christian faith, I hope that you can read this comment in the spirit with which it is offered.
I looked at your chart and I thought it would be helpful if I clarified something.
I spent 25 yrs in the Middle East working with poverty stricken individuals. I agree that it is incumbent upon the children of God to reach out to one another. I believe that each of us has to reach into our hearts and sould to answer the question, “How did you treat the least of your brethren.”
Having said that, I believe that our differences mainly reside in our views on economics. I simply do not feel that today’s liberal template helps the most vulnerable in our society. I truly don’t.
In my view, government has become an integral part of the problem in America. I find it tragic that the truly vulnerable are often left to wallow in misery while poverty has become a big industry in America.
I am unsure why my comments have elicited such rancor with you. It’s unfortunate as I think it has detracted from the free exchange of ideas provided by LaShawn. After racking my brain, I cannot think of any comments I have ever made in the blogosphere that condemn the unfortunate. In my mind, my comments have been largely confined to dissecting statements of others or examining positions from an economic perspective.
I consider myself to be a classical liberal, and, like most Americans, want our country to provide opportunities for all while recognizing that we do not live in a perfect world.
Comment by jb — 09.04.08 @ 5:48 pm
I agree with everything you just wrote jb.
I believe that JUSTICE is guaranteeing that no one is mistreated and that those who need help the most, get that help.
Not EVERYONE needs help - and that is what appears to be a classic dilemma.
Not EVERYONE who has fallen prey to Liberal ideology wants a handout or a freebee either. These are lies straight from the pit of hell. I know this because I minister to, teach, and guide people of all flavors.
Not EVERYONE who espouses conservative ideology has struck a Faustian bargain either.
I think that people in many areas of life - are BROKEN. How they got broken - who the hell really knows - it could be for a lot of reasons.
MANY people (of all persuasions or proclivities) consider themselves victims or some sort. Maybe not economic, legislative, institutional, or violence, but that they somehow have missed something. This yearning and longing is not of the Almighty, and this comfort that is sought can’t be manufactured. It has to be TAKEN.
He wants us to be careful for NOTHING, He wants us to not FRET or anything, but we often do.
I mentioned this before about Cognitive Dissonance, but this yearning, longing, and fretting is what could fall under what is called LOCUS OF CONTROL.
MANY people (of all persuasions or proclivities) don’t know what’s up and what’s down. They have very little sense of purpose and are not sure WHO to thank or condemn for their lot in life. Those who HAVE wonder if something is suddenly going to be taken away from them, and those who have not become impoverished and poor, not in spirit, but in their SOUL.
One thing is for sure, and one thing which we SHOULD agree on, and that is that CAESAR is not going to give us abundant life. He is not our shield and buckler, nor our many breasted one, nor our advocate - yet he can be an work alongside his called out ones to be an AGENT of Yahweh’s right-ness-es, while not taking on the form of the golden calf.
Can our agents resist the temptation to place themselves into heavenly places? Can they not sit in Moses’ seat?
I don’t know about you, but it’s that kinda crap that bothers me.
Comment by THEBIGDODDY — 09.04.08 @ 7:53 pm
Skyepuppy,
I don’t know about your Canadian friend, but illegal immigrants have a more difficult time in this country. They sacrifice more and get less. Amnesty is only fair.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.04.08 @ 8:32 pm
It always amazes me how people who’s first act is to break this nation’s laws are portrayed as victims because of the difficulty in either keeping up the charade that they ARE here legally, or concealing their misdeeds from authorities. And somehow, this is the basis for determining fairness when so many (including my wife) are doing it the right way?
As for this “sacrifice more and get less,” the very notion goes against the whole idea. The point of coming to this country is to increase opportunity and increase the standard of living. the point is that they’d get more for whatever sacrifices they made. That’s America. That’s why people come here.
Comment by Gabe — 09.05.08 @ 8:16 am
I’m a little upset that the national conversation still centers on whether illegal immigration should be addressed (it should be — and strongly).
The elephant in the room is that it is much harder to BECOME an American than it should be, and it makes it easier for the liberal whiners to make excuses for those who feel they ‘must’ go ‘around the law’.
Those who justify the breaking of the law ‘because it’s too hard’ should be directing their efforts toward legislative reform instead; but that, again, would be ‘harder’ than whining.
Comment by Undocumented Border Patrol Agent — 09.05.08 @ 11:35 am
arturo says:
I learned a long time ago that “fair” is a one time a year event where grown men toss pasture paddies to win a prize.
There is nothing “fair” about a country (Mexico) that has a solid lock on its Southern border to keep people out, while allowing its Northern border to become an increasingly lawless zone from within.
arturo, I have a proposition that is “fair.” We round up 1,000 illegal immigrants and we fly them to Dafur with $1,000 cash for each and we return with 1,000 political refugees. $1,000 should go far in Dafur (if they can hang onto it) and we help 1,000 people who can’t get here (legally or illegally) because of an “accident” of geography.
Here is another “fair” proposition: We immediately admit every person worldwide who is waiting to become legal immigrants.
Here is another “fair” concept: we extend our full welfare system to everyone in Canada and Mexico as a part of NAFTA.
The Washington Post had a story about “fairness” a few months ago. Construction jobs in the Northern Virginia area were suffering because of a crack down on illegal immigrants. A man from El Salvador was going to move his fleet of dump trucks to Maryland, because he couldn’t afford Virginia labor. But then, he changed his mind and decided to sell his trucks and “fire everyone” and move back to El Salvador.
Who is he going to sell his trucks to? Someone who plays by the rules and hires legal employees? Oh, my goodness.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.05.08 @ 11:49 am
No, I do not like this word fair. I do not like it anywhere.
When I first had children, one of the things that struck me was how my parent peers twisted themselves into pretzels trying to make sure that everything they gave their children was equal in the monetary/absolute sense. They scrutinized every gift of every sort. Life was put on a ledger column.
They wanted to be “fair.”
They were teaching their children to become bean counters. They taught them to always look at others and make comparisons about who got what. They taught them that any disparities [I am NOT talking about race or society here] could only be due to favoritism or a lack of love.
Far better for them to teach their children to revel in the good fortune of others. Far better to teach their children that their worth can never be found in a ledger column. Far better to teach their children that “wants/needs” differ from one person to the other.
No, I do not like this word fair. I do not like it anywhere.
Comment by jb — 09.05.08 @ 12:36 pm
heliotrope,
I like your proposition. Except that it’s not practical and it has nothing to do with “fairness”. It would be great if more Africans migrated to the US, more Mexicans to Germany, and more Turks to South Africa. But it’s just not going to happen. Bummer. And I’m not being sarcastic. I think it would be great if all different peoples spread out more on the globe. It wouldn’t be “fair”, it would just be real cool.
It is fair that they be given amnesty because Americans (the entrepreneur, but more important the consumer) have accepted them with jobs and for lower prices.
It’s not true that Mexico “has a lock on its Southern border to keep people out.” If it did, Central Americans wouldn’t be making it across Mexico and into the US. More Central Americans and fewer Mexicans are crossing the US/Mexico border these days.
Gabe,
illegal immigrants sacrifice more compared to everyone else here in the US, not compared to what their lives were like where they came from. Of course they’re better off here, or they wouldn’t be here.
Undocumented border patrol agent,
If you believe it should be easier to come in legally (which is what I think you mean by saying “become an American”), than you believe our current immigration laws have problems, they should be improved upon. Liberals “whining” is liberals in fact trying to change immigration policy, while conservatives want to stop them and instead reinforce bad laws. Amnesty is just an acknowledgment that we made a mistake.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.05.08 @ 4:39 pm
arturo says,
We did “amnesty” in the Reagan administration and it was a mistake.
If we grant “amnesty” again, why should we have any border or immigration laws?
I read this mean that immigration laws are bad laws. If so, then we hold opposite opinions. We have the sovereign right to control our borders and to decide who may come across our borders to wok and live.
Conservatives want to stop illegal immigrants and to enforce immigration laws. We have let the immigration system break apart. Conservatives want it fixed.
Now, arturo, if you are making an open borders argument, then we are at an impasse. I can not image that 10% of our population holds a philosophy as radical as that.
Shall we send ships to Haiti to pick up all the people who would like to be set free in California or Ohio? I can well imagine some “charities” who would form to charter such “mercy ships.”
Comment by heliotrope — 09.05.08 @ 5:06 pm
heliotrope,
the problem with the Reagan policy was not the amnesty part, but that it failed to allow for easier ways to allow a free market that creates jobs and people who want jobs to come together.
Open borders are certainly better than the government harassing American businesses who create more jobs than there are people to fill them. When it was easier to cross the border, people would come to work, go back with family, come back to work, etc. When the US economy turned bad, fewer people would come, and those here who lost their job were more inclined to go back, being easy to come back when the economy improved again.
Today, with greater enforcement and the fence, those coming are coming to stay, and bringing their families when they’re able to. When the economy here turns bad, like it is now, they’re staying, being so difficult to come back. So greater enforcement and the fence have been a big mistake, and a big waste of money.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.05.08 @ 6:05 pm
arturo fernandez–
If American businesses had created more jobs than there were people to fill them, our cities would not be filled with people longing for the jobs that are filled by illegals. But they are, whether you admit it or not.
We don’t need “greater” enforcement. We need enforcement, period. Not a waste of money, but the best investment toward our future that we could make.
Comment by Trish — 09.05.08 @ 11:22 pm
arturo,
This is a huge country. I do not live along the US-Mexican border. I live closer to the US-Canadian border. I have no idea where you live. But we are all subject to generalizing a picture by applying our experiences.
We have a trailer park that is 99% Mexican immigrant. As a “community organizer” I joined with our Catholic churches, the hospital I serve, the schools, the owner of the trailer park and the neighborhood association next to the trailer park to help these folks join our culture. Our first “rule” was no illegals and no harboring illegals. These folks have turned out to be our greatest community asset in combating illegal immigration.
Our Mexican population is growing rapidly. We have people working double and triple jobs to buy cars, homes and send money back to families in Mexico. Twice a year my friend Maria drives a box truck full of used clothes, shoes, and small items to her home town in Mexico. She has no trouble getting donations and we cover her costs easily.
Many of her relatives want to come live here. They are more than welcome, if they immigrate legally.
Up on the Canadian border, we have vast stretches of area where you just walk into Canada. There are roads with only a sawhorse and a sign “blocking” the border when the agent is off duty. People flow back and forth across the border to work, shop and keep appointments. But, then, Canada is not Mexico.
If I were a poor Mexican, I would prefer to live among Mexicans earning enough money to own a car and have enough left to send home. I would go to the United States. That is a no brainer.
The problem is, the United States has a massive welfare safety net for its citizens that is well above the standard of living for a poor person living in Mexico.
We can not afford the “foreign aid” to raise poor people living in Mexico to our welfare level standard of living. Nor can we afford to move that population to the United States.
Mexico has out bred itself. The economy can not (and does not try) to accommodate the huge numbers Mexicans of under 16. The United States is not demographically out of balance and is not in need of Mexicans to make the economy work. (If necessary, I can explain that at another time.)
Back to our trailer park. It is loaded with kids. We are not training those kids to pick apples or rake lawns. They are or will be American citizens. We encourage them to higher aspirations and to help our lives and their lives be better. Before long, they will move from the trailer park to starter houses. Our Mexican grocery shops are already feeling the pinch from the chain stores that are carrying their foods. The melding and blending is well underway.
But, this is not a friendly place for illegal immigrants and it is ever worse for an illegal immigrant business. We are as nasty as we are friendly. Illegal immigrants and businesses are a cancer in the midst of a healthy community and we hack the cancer out.
arturo, we have no Mexican homeland groups here. Those groups bring gangs and pimps and low life activities with them. Our Mexican friends are proud of their heritage, but very enthusiastic about their new home. Our town has zero graffiti. We erase it and track it down as soon as it appears. Our drug traffic is well enough understood to know the who, what, where, why and when of it. I do not hear slurs against Mexicans. We have nearly no Mexican crime. That includes Mexican on Mexican or any other combination. Our biggest problem is with people who are slow on learning English. But we are working hard on that problem as well.
In the heartland, our town is what every town aims to be.
(The trailer park exists in fact, but it is also a metaphor. Most of our very sizable Mexican population lives in communities and we work with all those communities.)
Comment by heliotrope — 09.06.08 @ 12:28 pm
Trish,
Over the past 30 years, as illegal immigration has increased, unemployment has been low, at times reaching historic lows, to levels considered “full employment” in a free market economy. 12 million additional jobs, with no rise in unemployment, means our economy is 12 million jobs stronger, which wouldn’t be the case without an additional 12 million people, who happen to be illegal immigrants.
That 12 million jobs less-skilled jobs have been filled with illegal immigrants, while unemployment remained the same, means that Americans were taking better-skilled better-paying jobs. Illegal immigrants have enabled Americans to go after better-skilled work. That’s a good thing, for which we should be grateful.
But now in the new era of anti-illegal-immigration, government is harassing businesses, accelerating a downturn in the economy. So in this new era of anti-illegal-immigration unemployment is going up. What a shame.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.06.08 @ 12:55 pm
heliotrope,
In the 1970s the average Mexican woman had six kids. Today it’s two kids. With Mexico’s growing free-market economy and its stable population soon Mexicans will have no interest in us. That may already be the case. The lower number of crossings (apprehensions) are probably a result of that. The illegal immigration “problem”, at least from Mexico, was fixing itself. The fence is a big waste of money. Soon in the future we’ll be looking at it with embarrassment.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.06.08 @ 1:06 pm
heliotrope, I commend what you’re doing to help the Mexican newcomers into your community.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.06.08 @ 1:33 pm
arturo,
I limited my post to Mexicans because they are the largest group among illegal immigrants. NAFTA was an effort (in part) to bring about economic stability in Mexico so that the US would not be a magnet for the poor. To the extent that it is working, I say “bravo.”
Who will be embarrassed by the fence and why? It is not a “Berlin Wall” in which we are trying to keep Americans in. We don’t see a lot of Americans digging tunnels trying to get into Mexico. We don’t have long lines of Americans having their vehicles thoroughly searched for drugs, contraband or people who are being smuggled into Mexico. Mexican land owners along the Rio Grande are not worried about Americans violating their private property as they run South. Americans are not paying “coyotes” to sneak them into Mexico where they are abandoned to the elements. US gangs and police and military are not raiding Mexican towns along the US border. Mexican girls visiting the US are not being kidnapped, raped and murdered as a “message” to the Mexican authorities.
Mexico has a population that is 1/3 that of the US. Its population is beginning to stabilize in demographic terms, but the current trend will have 50 years before the country reaches demographic stasis.
You contradict yourself in your answer to Trish and your answer to me. You make the point that illegal immigrants are doing our “grunt” work. arturo, we have a broken work permit, green card, migrant labor system. We have always “imported” seasonal workers. Our grunt labor does not have to rely upon illegal immigrants. That is such a false argument it is hard to know were to begin attacking it. We tried moving industry to Mexico and it failed. Our offshore labor is in Asia and both the US and Mexico are suffering the consequences. Your labels don’t say product of Mexico; they say China, Thailand, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia. The souvenirs they hawk at the Pyramids outside Cairo are made in China. Egyptian cotton is sent to China and sold to luxury markets in around the world, but not Egypt. They can’t afford it. The point being, Mexico is trapped with significant oil income and vast money being sent home from relatives in the US, but a small middle class that can not sustain a first world economy on its own.
Man, oh, man. You have some crazy Chamber of Commerce of Illegal Immigration view of global economics!
Comment by heliotrope — 09.06.08 @ 1:55 pm
Your right, no queston about it.
Comment by Courtney — 09.06.08 @ 3:34 pm
What is so fasinating to me about the debate is the way it has been contorted into a moronic one dimensional view– for illegal immigration = compassionate; against illegal immigrants = bad, cruel, mean.
Meanwhile,those who are struggling, see their children’s education resources diverted to the children of illegals. You see, these parents don’t have the luxury of expressing knee-jerk “compassion,” cuz their childrens’ futures are at stake. Only those whose children are insulated from the downside promote the scenario. In my book, that is short-sighted at best, hypocritical at worst.
Having just had our seventeenth crime in two years [yet another hit and run in a parking lot], I can only imagine that those who are even more vulnerable than my family to the economic ramifications of the illegal invasion feel victimized. I have spoken with them and I know that they resent the problems forced upon them to accomodate those they see as freeloaders. Trust me when I say that having one’s neighborhood infiltrated with gangbangers is NOT fun.
There is a high unemployment rate among blacks in my area. They simply cannot compete with hordes of males camping out in family homes to make a living. They shouldn’t have to reduce themselves to third world living standards to make a living.
Let’s have a REAL discussion about immigration that includes the costs as well as the benefits.
yeah, most Americans are compassionate. BUT, sometimes one person’s compassion is another person”s cruelty. let’s talk about reality and get off the stupidity of who is more compassionate……………….
Comment by jb — 09.06.08 @ 6:36 pm
heliotrope,
Your “Berlin wall” paragraph is as silly as your “fairness” paragraph above.
Mexico is actually holding up quite well these days, specially considering the recent US slowdown:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laplaza/2008/05/mexico-prosperi.html
(the complete article unfortunately is not available for free).
jb,
Obviously, you wish to see yourself as “compassionate” when you’re simply being fair. That says a lot about your side’s perverted perspective.
What are your talking about having a REAL discussion that includes the costs? That’s all you guys talk about. There’s a good book out now that does what you’re saying you want, a balanced look at the costs vs benefits. It’s called “Let Them In” by not-a-liberal Jason Riley. If you’re serious, read it. At least read the review of it in the July/August issue of Commentary Magazine.
But a REAL discussion cannot be had when you start by distorting with myths, which is all your comment did. You attempt to associate violent crime with illegal immigration. Riley’s book goes into this anti-illegal-immigration myth, but here’s a link if you’re interested,
http://contexts.org/articles/winter-2008/sampson/
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.06.08 @ 7:59 pm
arturo links to this:
Bingo!
The second largest income source of the Mexican economy is money sent home to family by Mexicans in the United States.
arturo, I am not bashing Mexico. Your claim that illegal immigration should be resolved by amnesty because it is “fair” shows how little investment you have in the health, safety and future of the United States.
Why are the California prisons bursting at the seams with prisoners who are illegal aliens? Any musings about that? We might as well have a look into other corners of your amazing mind.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.06.08 @ 9:39 pm
Hey, Americans! Suppose the second largest source of income in the economy of Mexico were to be in the hands of citizens of the United States who spent it in our economy.
After all, if you send illegal immigrants home, they will simply stay and work in their own economy. Right? According to arturo, Mexico has got its population and economic issues all but whipped. And the border is nearly deserted except for day-trippers who come to shop and fly kites.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.06.08 @ 10:14 pm
“Bingo!”
I don’t blame you much for misunderstanding because you didn’t read the full article. What you quoted back to us is what the article goes on to explain is not happening.
“The second largest income source of the Mexican economy is money sent home to family by Mexicans in the United States.”
Nonsense. Remittances equal about 18 billion. In an economy with a GDP of 1.2 trillion, that’s about 2%. I think you’re talking about foreign income. The service sector comprises 70% of GDP, which means Mexicans are Mexicans’ main reason for why Mexicans have the highest per capita income in Latin America.
Of course illegal immigration should be resolved with amnesty. Americans (the entrepreneur, but more important the consumer) have welcomed 12 million people into their communities with jobs and for lower prices. Amnesty is the law simply catching up with what Americans have decided they value.
“Why are the California prisons bursting at the seams with prisoners who are illegal aliens?”
Nonsense. Illegal immigrants commit less crimes proportionately.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.06.08 @ 10:31 pm
This may be all coincidental, since arturo fernandez is almost a generic name ….. but ….. arturo fernandez pops up on blogs praising Chavez in Venezuela ….. arturo fernandez pops up on blogs concerning Cemex cement ….. arturo fernandez pops up on blogs to defeat the border fence ….. and never does arturo fernandez use capital letters in his name.
Without getting technical, the old style communist cell practice was to use a code name in publications with a unique spelling or not using capital letters or including a nickname. This way, other cells would recognize the name and join in support of the “party line” being pushed.
If it appears that I am saying that arturo fernadez is a mole on blogs, it is because that is how it appears to me. Although his arguments are distinctly ham handed, it is still cheap and easy for arturo fernandez to spread the germ of doubt. That is the job of the fifth columnist.
I get my statistical information about countries from the Department of State Bulletins, the CIA World Factbook and information from the National Ground Intelligence Service. I have checked arturo fernandez’s statistics against these sources and they never pan out. He must be a lot smarter than our intelligence agencies. Or he is a flamboyant example of: “Figures don’t lie, but liars can figure.”
Comment by heliotrope — 09.07.08 @ 8:54 am
Arturo,
I must not have made my point well. I am simply saying that for those who have born the brunt of illegal immigration - mostly those in lower income areas - the frustration is often warranted. Those who are insulated from the impact, often fail to understand the frustration.
Like it or not, infiltration of gangs has been an outcome of illegal immigration. Like it or not, public schools have been hard hit. Like it or not, hospitals have been hit hard.
For those who do not have the wherewithall to insulate themselves from the downside, there is legitimate frustration.
My point is simply that the equation is not simple. One cannot say that opposing illegal immigration is a function of a lack of compassion.
I was not trying to tie illegal immigration to violent crime. Rather, I was making the point that there are aspects of illegal immigration that have genuinely impacted folks.
Yet, anyone who brings up the costs is slammed as lacking in compassion.
In short, I am focusing on a singular aspect - compassion/lack of compassion as dialogue metric -that should not be extrapolated to mean more than I meant.
At the end of the day, I favor a guest worker program that allows a free exchange of labor, unconnected with welfare. I also favor a far more effective immigration system that moves folks through the system more easily. I have, over the years, traveled to DC a number of times from overseas, trying to facilitate immigration for individuals from third world countries.
Comment by jb — 09.07.08 @ 9:15 am
heliotrope,
You’re sounding a bit paranoid. “arturo fernandez” is my actual name, and my comments on blogs only concern illegal immigration and less often gay rights.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.07.08 @ 12:17 pm
Thanks for the free diagnosis. I have located arturo fernandez on seven US blogs discussing the economic improvement in Venezuela and the nationalization of Cemex in Venezuela. Ironically, arturo fernandez supports Arturo Fernandez of Cemex in the stand Cemex took in not supplying cement for the border fence in the US. This after Cemex took over Rinker in Texas.
I have a long association with propaganda writers going back to those of Daniel Ortega and Salvador Isabelino Allende Gossens of Chile. I am very much acquainted with the cell work of Neftalí Ricardo Reyes Basoalto who wrote poetry under the name Pablo Neruda in Chile. My “paranoia” stems from monitoring “the game.”
If you are a generic arturo ferandez, so be it. But you are doing identical work to another arturo fernandez on the web. Or a whole cell of arturo fernandez writers.
One more coincidence, arturo fernandez is also vocal on the web concerning ties between Ecuador’s President Rafael Correa and Chavez of Venezuela concerning a military union against Colombia.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.07.08 @ 7:18 pm
you’re welcome.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.07.08 @ 10:38 pm
Arturo, or whoever you are–
If 12 million jobs have been added to the economy, that does not mean that the additional 12 million illegals are not taking those jobs away from Americans, merely that the increase in the number of jobs is equal in number to the increase in the number of illegals.
You forget, I worked in an unemployment office. I saw many, many, many low-income American citizens apply for benefits. Often they did not qualify because the jobs they had held did not pay enough. Meanwhile, illegals who would have qualified monetarily came in to be disqualified on their illegal status so that they could collect welfare. They held not only jobs that American citizens would do, but better jobs than our citizens had.
Comment by Trish — 09.08.08 @ 8:24 pm
Trish,
arturo posits that the Mexican border is almost a park like place where mommies walk their babies and chat in the sunshine.
We have 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants in the US. (How does anyone know that number?) arturo would have you believe that only a scant few are in prison, committing crimes, taking welfare. arturo suggests all these people are doing jobs that would go unfilled by US citizens.
Look at every major US city. There is an area where there is poverty, high unemployment, high crime, community dysfunction, vandalism, gangs, bars on windows, etc. These areas are full of US citizens. Are we to believe that there are no illegal immigrants among them? Are we to believe that illegal immigrants can find jobs that our citizens will not take?
Illegal immigrants crowd into houses and apartments to make the per capita rent as small as possible. They take cash payments as “contract labor” that has no deductions. Their $5.00 an hour is a full $5.00. Many have learned how to do their “contract labor” and collect welfare as well.
arturo sings a sweet song of harmony and utility that just does not pass the simplest of smell tests. There is a long history to that type of propaganda.
Comment by heliotrope — 09.09.08 @ 12:26 pm
Trish, whoever you are, and heliotrope,
It is simply a fact that while illegal immigration was going up the unemployment rate for the most part remained the same, at times going even lower. In the new era of anti-illegal-immigration hysteria, government with your consent has been harassing healthy business who still need illegal immigrants. Unemployment is now going up, which was not happening when illegal immigration was going up. With Howard Industries hiring 500 illegal immigrants, they needed to add salesmen, secretaries, bookkeepers, etc,–non-illegal immigrant Americans. Now that they’re being forced to decrease productivity per worker they’re probably going to have to let go some of the non-immigrants Americans they’d hired. Good job there.
Of course every major US city has unemployed people. Let’s discount those who on their own are making a career/life change, go to school, etc, and we have a very small number, maybe 1 or 2 per 100. It is reasonable to believe that 1 or 2 in 100 aren’t working because they lack work ethic, they may have been fired for good reason, may have a criminal record that makes it difficult to get employment. Don’t blame illegal immigrants, who’s work ethic and whose character they should copy and not demean. Frankly, you’re just adding to the problem by making excuses for them.
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.09.08 @ 9:01 pm
…should be “non-illegal immigrants they’d hired.”
Comment by arturo fernandez — 09.09.08 @ 9:04 pm
The media continues to attack Sarah Palin for a second straight week but it appears that those efforts may have actually backfired.
Pingback by Watcher of Weasels — 09.10.08 @ 5:19 am
La Shawn Barber: Americans Doing Jobs Illegal Aliens CAN’T Do” […]
Pingback by Bookworm Room — 09.10.08 @ 1:50 pm
La Shawn Barber: Americans Doing Jobs Illegal Aliens CAN’T Do…
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Illegals Take Jobs That Americans Won’t Do? Nonsense.
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